Mats Norrman, in response to me:

>>Was Beethoven actually a non-believer, unwilling to say so frankly?
>
>I had something in my head saying that Beethoven had a rather Spinozian
>theologigal wiew of Mr. God.  Could you verify if Beethoven got in touch
>with Spinozas or his affectionados writings?

It's not very likely that Beethoven knew Spinoza.  As far as I know he
never mentioned the man's name, not in a conversation, nor in a letter
or diary.  Beethoven had received a very bad education and it's hardly
imagineable that he was teached something about Spinoza at school.  He
went to school for the first time when he was 7 and left again when he
was only 11 or 12.  Though he later on tried to fill in the gaps, he
only partly succeeded.  His use of his mother tongue was embarrassing bad
and his knowledge about history, geography, languages and, the worst of
all, mathematics was rudimentary.  He was not able to multiply and had to
reduce every multiplication to an addition and even then he often erred.
Biographers often point to his love for various philosophers and then quote
his famous remark on Kant, but often fail to tell their readers that it's
wise to take this love with a grain of salt.  Beethoven's friend Wegeler
once invited him for some lessons on Kant, given at the university, but
Beethoven was not interested.  However, when rereading Beethoven's remarks
on God and rereading some digressions on Spinoza it also came to my mind
that there's something very Spinozian in his view on God.  Coincidence? The
sign of the times? According to my encyclopedia on philosophy there was
some kind of Spinoza revival during Beethoven's lifetime.

>www.ademu.com/Beethoven
>
>I find this Beethovn page absolutely excellent, and I just wanted to draw
>others attention to it, in case they haven't noticed.

Thank you very much, Mats, but I'm flabbergasted!  Can you read it? Can you
read Dutch, that silly, obscure language?

>Those high chords in the choral end van Beethovens 9.  could be said to
>be a symbol for the tortured bleeding artists strive "upwards", to the
>"good act" - a concept later Wagner picked up - what means that they by
>talking about philosophical and ethical etc problems of their time and of
>eternities, may rise the people from an unconscious level to a conscious.
>This according to a part of Ricouers articulate on expression.

A beautiful and interesting explanation, but if I may believe Beethoven
himself he only wanted to express the huge distance between us and the
starry sky, which should be explained as a simple example of tone painting.

Joyce Maier
www.ademu.com/Beethoven