Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
>Dave Lampson wrote:
>
>>At Hyperion prices, they have to be generous. There's also the
>>implication here that Naxos discs are substantially more stingy when it
>>comes to timing than Hyperion.
>
>That's fine with me.
I'm sorry, but what's fine? After the data showed that overall Naxos
and Hyperion offer about the same timings per CD (Naxos is only about
one minute less, on average), you still contend that Naxos discs are
substantially more stingy when it comes to timing than Hyperion? I must
have missed something. Or you have.
>I like value for my money as much as anyone. But there is simply a lot of
>music on Hyperion that is NOT available on Naxos.
And visa versa, so what's your point?
>Considering the research and efforts of the performers on the Hyperion
>project and the results, you can say it's not a fair comparison.
Only if you incorrectly assume that there is no research or preparation on
the part of the performers on the Naxos label. Do you have evidence for
this claim?
>"The latest disc in Hyperion's Schubert Song series has a 112-page
>booklet (cost around GBP1.11) with the texts and translations of all the songs.
Oh, BFD. I know there are a lot of people who think they are entitled to
complete texts and translations, but I can also tell you there are many
who either don't care or would rather never see such things in a booklet.
Logically the texts aren't required in the booklet any more than the
complete score.
I would much rather read about the music, the composer, or preferably
about the process of creating the performance. How was the music chosen?
What is the performers perspective on the music and its interpretation?
The sorts of things you can read in Dave Runnion's "Trio Notes" concerning
his activities with the Serafino Trio (http://www.serafinotrio.com/).
Other Hyperion releases do impress greatly in this regard, especially
the generally outstanding booklets in the Liszt cycle by Leslie Howard.
>Not everybody is prepared to forego that 'luxury' (some would say
>necessity) for a lower price?" I agree with that comment from Hyperion
>on this debate over super budget cds versus full priced ones.
The parts in quotes in the this segment and the one above are directly
from Ted Perry's sometimes contradictory diatribe against low-cost CDs
at the Hyperion web site (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/cdcosts.html).
He even goes so far as to imply that people who buy budget CDs are not
"discriminating and knowledgeable record collector[s]". Right. Of course
Ted is correct and Hyperion is offering a premium product, but to imply
that anything else is not worthy of our time or money is simply ridiculous.
>As for suggestion just because they charge a lot means that they have to
>give you more content, not so.
Who ever said such a thing? Please don't spend time erecting straw men.
It doesn't add to the discussion at all.
>Compared to the other big boys on the block (meaning those major labels
>like DG, Phillips, Decca, and those really stingy folks at Sony-CBS) who
>typically aren't always generous on their filling of the CDs, Hyperion is
>ahead of the pack, as your own antedoctal survey of your collection would
>indicate.
Now there's a bizarre tangent. Did anyone say that the majors did as
good a job as Hyperion at filling the disc and writing good notes? I agree
that in general they do not, but why construct this straw man? Second, this
crack about the "really stingy folks at Sony-CBS" is simply uncalled for
and completely unsupported by the facts. As the data I presented clearly
shows, since Sony took over the time per disc has moved right up to the top
of the list. Sony is in eighth place averaging only 43 seconds less per
disc than Hyperion. If you have data that indicates otherwise, please let
us see it. Third, characterizing what I posted as an "anecdotal survey"
makes me wonder if either you failed to read my post carefully (quite
probable, it seems) or don't understand the meaning of the word
"anecdotal".
>My personal observation has been that lately there has been a shrinking
>of material on the releases of Naxos and Marco Polo.
Well, as I have pointed out in the past, this "personal observation"
simply does not agree with the facts. Overall, CD timings have increased
or stayed about the same every year since the medium was introduced.
I presented data a couple of years ago that completely refuted a similar
contention, and I'll present more data below.
>(Just look at the timings on the earlier Johann Strauss series and
>compare them to the more recent releases in the Marco Polo catalogue for
>the Lumbye, and other Strauss Dance Cycles that are ongoing.
OK, so what are the numbers? How many discs are involved in your sample
population, and what exactly has been the drop in average timings? (FYI,
the above is an "anecdote".) I have some of these discs, as well as many
others. Here are my numbers for the last ten years:
1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 Overall
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -------
1. 60:51 65:17 67:18 65:25 66:06 64:15 65:46 62:00 70:09 64:53 -- 65:10
2. 57:46 65:51 70:44 64:46 63:29 66:28 65:07 67:55 64:46 64:15 65:45 65:22
3. 63:26 64:19 65:02 65:31 64:19 65:19 65:41 66:22 65:54 65:40 64:58 64:57
1. Marco Polo (195 CDs in sample)
2. Naxos (215 CDs)
3. All Labels (2900 CDs)
Does anyone see a downward trend in any of these numbers? If so, please
write me. I'd like to get hooked up with your dealer as you obviously
are getting better drugs than I have access to.
>Naxos has contribution to the spread of times new roman font everywhere
>is to be appreciated. Thank you Klaus!
Hyperbole. I believe newspapers have probably had a somewhat more
pervasive effect in this regard, don't you?
>I just read in the latest Gramophone that Universal Music Group (the
>company that now owns just about every major classical label) ...
Oh, come on now. If you know anything about the industry you know
that UMG is nothing more or less than the old Polygram group of labels
(London/Decca, DG, Philips, ECM). These labels have been under one roof
for some time now.
>... is now releasing a super budget series at rock bottom prices
>of around 6 bucks each. The initial release is for 200 titles.
We also need to be able to differentiate between news and press releases.
These labels have had budget releases selling at this price nearly since
the introduction of the CD. This is not "news".
>The spokesman at Naxos when asked about this basically took the Bill Gates
>approach, which is "We aren't worried".
Why should they be? The majors have, with the slight exception of BMG's
Arte Nova budget line, been completely unable to compete with Naxos. BTW,
has anyone heard anything about the future of Arte Nova? There appear to
be about 325 releases currently, and back in June they released the last
in their outstanding Beethoven quartet set, but there's no mention of
this label at any of the BMG websites, and their new releases seem to
have slowed considerably.
>I am a big fan of Naxos and have a lot of their cds; and what they have
>done to make core recordings super cheap available for the mass market.
In spite of being such a big fan, you apparently don't know much
about the Naxos catalog or have an unconventional definition of "core
repertoire". Of course, they have the basics, but they've had that for
quite some time now. How do their several dozen releases in the American
Classics series fit in? How about their 18th Century Symphonies series?
The Organ Encylcopedia? I could go on...
>But this hagiography for Klaus and the canonization of Naxos is just
>silly, as others on the list have pointed out.
Proof positive you didn't read my post. Here's some advice, and I suggest
you take it to heart: if you want to inject a political agenda into a
discussion, you best avoid it on my watch. I consider this statement to
be a personal insult, a slur on the list as a whole, and completely out
of bounds in the current discussion.
>As the manager of Hyperion has said: "Let us hope that the current
>mistrust of CD prices and suspicion about the motives of record companies
>is not contagious. ..."
Ah yes, another Ted Perry slur on the record buying public, as if the
ability to understand the basics of economics and math is some kind of
disease. I won't even bother responding to the rest of Ted's propaganda
here except to say that all the facts point to a situation where Hyperion
would both make more money and create a larger market for their product
by lowering the price somewhat. Funny thing is, we now know Ted knows
this too as evidenced by the thirty releases in their half-price Dyad
series. If Hyperion (or any of the other full/premium-priced labels) lower
their retail price by one third, is there much question that sales would
increase by half or more? There are perhaps a hundred or more additional
Hyperion releases I'd buy at that price. How many people would try an
unknown composer on Hyperion (something of a big deal for them, eh?) at
$12, but won't take the chance at $19? Explicit in Ted's credo is the
idea that classical CDs don't sell in quantity, and therefore must carry
an elite price from the beginning. Naxos has blown this idea out of the
water. If Klaus is respected, it's because he's proven this "conventional
wisdom" wrong, as many of us have been saying since before there was a
Naxos.
>I couldn't have said it better!
I'm sure.
Dave
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