Robert Peters <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>After Mats Norrman's (I think rather unpleasant) attack on Don Satz's
>Wagner views in the "Atonal Music"-thread I think it is time to think about
>the reasons for the subjective and controversial reactions pro and contra
>Wagner.

I regret I even replied to Donald Satz post on Wagner.

>Why is it that Wagner gets more hysterically attacked and adored than
>almost any other composer? I'd like to present my thoughts on the subject.
>(I myself like some of Wagner's music, some of it bores me and I have read
>some biographies on the man that made me not especially looking forward to
>meet him in eternity.)

As I have pointed out several times; reading just the standard biographies
on Wagner, is a perfect way to acquire a biased (negative) wiew on him,
because the writers are biased(="Kitschig" in German).  This is nothing
unique for Wagner's case however.  Do you think you get an absolute image
of Don Satz' wife, and what she is like, just through reading her husbands
posts to the list on the subject?

>I think almost everyone would agree that the next two sentences are
>correct:
>
>1) Wagner is one of the most gifted composers in the history of music.
>2) Wagner was a man of a dubious (some would say lousy) character.

I agree completely.

>If you've ever listened to the whole Ring (and I did and I consider it
>great music though I do not buy the whole thing and the whole idea) you
>really hunger for some humour (I mean real humour, not sarcasm, irony or
>cynicism - humour is a sign of accepting the real world, sarcasm shows
>belief in one's own superiority over others).

Are you kidding man? Wagner had a great lot of humour, and that he
expressed in his works too.  Have you ever heard about an opera named "Die
Meistersinger von Nuernberg"? However that is not the only example, on the
top of my head I could provide several examples of humour in Wagner from
The Ring, "Parsifal"...etc.

>as a native German and a lover and teacher of German poetry, I can tell
>you: Wagner's poetry is very poor and often pathetic (all the ridiculous
>Stabreime) compared with even some of the lesser German poets of his time),
>there is his artistic arrogance,

Now you are kidding again, or you are showig a significant unability
to judge a written artwork.  There are not just Stabreime in Wagner -
in "Lohengrin", yes - but take the Ring.  Here no Stabreime, everything
in alliteration which contribute to give the whole work an aura of that
time it is taken place in cronologically.  "Lohengrin"s Stabreime is
kitsch, there I can agree, although I think it beautiful, but when the
Ring and Meistersinger is concerned, you should know that here Wagenr
expresses an astonishing knowledge in the verseforms of the times the
respective plots take place in.  "Meistersinger" is the masterwork.
Please check the archieves for my post on Meistersinger, so I don't need
to chug chug up everything again.  But a short prewiew you can have:  The
verses in "Meistersinger" are very carefully upbuilt, and shows Wagenrs
great knowledge and understanding for the 16th century German "Burgerlied".
They are subtle enough to allow Wagner to draw propulsion of the plot from
them, as Beckmesser, origianlly "Hans Lich", the caricature of the rigid
critics symbolized by Eduard Hanslick, sings lines that are so perfect
Burgerlied so they are almost parody (what probably is intended).  Walter
von Stolzing on the other hand, like the true masterful artist, breaks the
rules of the songform everything in accordation with what Fux wrote (Gradus
ad Paranssum) about blowing rules in the great musicians.

>...there is his fierce belief that he was right to fight artistic
>"enemies" any way he chose (one way was the disgusting "Das Judentum
>in der Musik").

There were some reasons to this script, not to forget.  Bad feelings after
the defeat in Paris, yes, but it can also be seen as to be a flirt with
Johann of Saxony, that times leading antisemitic prince.

Walter Meyer <[log in to unmask]>:

>Wagner's music is considered profound and inspired by some; less so by
>others...as is the music of many others.  (Even Mozart finds less than
>unanimous appreciation on Internet classical music lists!)

Fact is, that Wagner is in written medium the most discussed person in
world history, after Jesus and Napoleon.

I agree with Herr Meyer on the rest of his post under this thread.

P.S.  I know the some don't want to see this kind of private PS's on the
list, but please allow me one.  To the listmember who asked me concerning
that visit to the rareWagnerrecordingshop:  I have secured that highly
interesting Czech Phil/Vaclav Neumann "Excerpts from Siegfried" from the
50ies for you.  You can have it when you want.  Your emailserver bounces my
private mails, please let me hear from you from a working address.  Thanks.
Hope the right one sees this mess.  D.S.

Mats Norrman
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