Alex Renwick <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Assuming the answer is (c), I offer the following comments.  It is
>so obvious that there is a high correlation between intelligence and a
>musician, composer or player, that it hardly bears saying.  There may be
>the odd dunce playing in symphony orchestras but surely Bach, Haydn and
>Mozart were among the geniuses of their era (as was Barbara Tuchman and
>is William Manchester of our own).

The weak point in your message is:  how do you define intelligence? If
this is defined with the ability to solve logical problems (a.k.a what you
measure with a classic IQ-test) you will find Beethoven at IQ 160, Mozart
and J.S Bach at IQ 165, Haendel at IQ 170 (estimated numbers from Mensas
site), and many others at very high - Wagner had a great capacity for
instance - BUT:  the ability to solve logical problems is not the only
intelligence you use when you compose music!  Composing music is a complex
process which take many working processes of the brain in use.  So, high
intelligence doesn't necessarily allow you to be a good composer (implied
that you practise much)!  165 is a high IQ, but there must on earth be many
who has that IQ, and there were few people in world history that became
great composers.

Think also of the Idiot Savants!!  And that is exactly the point of issue!
Consider sportsmen for seeing my point; they have made physical tests with
top sportsmen, and these tests clearly show that it is not those who get
the best results in physical test, i.e those who hence should get the best
results in competitions, who become the winners in competitions.  It is
because there are more factors involved than just physical strength.  Some
would say it sits in the soul.  So it is with great composers (and many
other genres as well).  I can say that most of the great composers had
something more than just pure musical talent; they had a "genial psyche",
and a part of that is that they were very egoistic.  That is why it is
so lousy to accuse just Ricky Wagner for being a jerk - most of the great
composers were - read about the composers and you will find that many of
them were jerks too from time to time, sometimes you will have to read
between the lines though, as many biographers love their subject for
writing.  Beethoven was thought to be a misanthrop, so was DeBussy, Brahms
said many lousy things about women and Wagner for instance, Haydn wasn't
that charming "Papa Haydn" as he is classically described to be, Haendel
used very lousy methods against performers and others to get his will
through, Sjostakovitj said the truth always, how cruel the truth ever was,
Janacek, Tjajkovskij, Mahler were often aggressive.  At closer study you
will find that also compsoers who traditionally are described as socially
talented, fall into this jerkcathegory too; there are many eyewuithnesses
describing Mendelssohns snottiness, and Mozart didn't think his wife to
live up to his ideal of a woman, therefore he walked around telling people
she was "nothing but a slut".  I could go on for long time.  My point is
that most of composers had a great ego, meanwhile, or probably thanks to
that, they had a will to develop themselves and magnetic personalities, and
a good sence for impress people, make commercial for themselves, to build
up an image about themselves.  They were in other words, the schamans of
our time.

But to see this more than reading just the classic biographies are needed.
Read Bruckners or other peoples letters describing him for example; and you
will see that Bruckner wasn't that ankward weirdo he is said to be (at
least not in that way), and he seduced many women too.:-)

The great composers can, to conclude, thank their psyche rather than their
IQ for what they were.  They had the right social skill, meanwhile being
great egos.  There is so a difference in the psyche of just plain people
and genial people.  Of course most of the great composers had an IQ not to
be ashamed of, but that has as much to do with their other abilities as
with their musical talent.

Idiot Savants, then, can have good musical talent, and there have been
Idiot Savants who composed wonderful music, but they came on short in too
many other fields, socially.  There has never been an idiot savant who knew
how to sell himself.  Therefore they came on short as composers as well.

>In addition, musicians, as a group, are among the most articulate persons
>one will find.

As I tried to say above.  Verbal talent is very important social talent.

Mats Norrman
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