More so under the subject of Wagner.  To discuss Wagner tend to too often
lead to a hot arguing about antisemitism, though there is much more to have
as intersting subjects of discussion.  I cant get rid of the feeling that
when we now talk Wagner we are not talking about the same person.

But I would like to invite more people to the discussion on Wagner, and I
hope barking about antisemitism just not scare people away.

I would be interested to hear more peoples opinions on what values they
find in Wagenrs operas and with a special regard to opus magnifigus The
Ring.

What influences do you find in the Ring for example?

To me there are many influences, of those I would regard Bakunin, Hegel,
Schopenhauer, and Wischer the most important.  The latter a reknowned
brilliant Tuebingen writer, who usually brings much pleasure to read.  His
main contribution is the have brought Wagners notice upon the Niebelunga
Saga, and drafted the scenario of its cyclic form.  I recommend reading his
1844 "Suggestion for an opera", which sheds light on the underlaying
 ["proto-Schopenhauerian" is implied] ideas to the Ring very clearly.

Other fuel for discussion might be Wagners relation to the other great
writer of modern time; Goethe.  I would be very interested to hear about
others opinions of Goehtes influence on the ideas in the Ring.  As far as
I am concerned, Wagner, although he fell a little on short according to
some eyewithnesses on topics of this kind, had read much Goethe.  I draw
this conclusion in regard to the several similar elements in Wagners and
Goethes works.  Probably, for example, Wagner might have known Goethes
"Clavico" at the time for "Die Hochzeit" as the funeral scene in "Die
Hochzeit" is a little bit too much of that in "Clavigo".  "Rienzi" has
paralells to as well "Goetz" as "Egmont"...Tannhaeusers similar situation
to that of Torquato Tasso and so on; Adelheid in "Goetz" could well have
stood model for Ortrud, and Iphigenie to Brunhilda.  Also Meistersinger
(Sachs monologues have something that allows comparision with parts of
Goethe - I'd make elaborations of those examples if anyone happens to be
particualary interested - but the Goethian sun shines with its dispresence
in the Ring.  "Faust" occipies that coresponding place in Goethes
production as The Ring to Wagners, and the construction of those works
follow a similar sheme, which I just wonder is intended by Wagner for
making his break with the lofty poet in the substance of the story.  The
continuing on Goethes road, but farther than Goethe went, shows to me
Wagners sensibility for his times streams, as when Goethes characters
(think of Faust now), strive for life (You see Goethe never read
Schopenhauer), and Wagners for death (Tristan, Wotan etc), and this has
to do with why I feel symphathy with Mr.  Akimas wiew on Wagner, that
this difference clearly shows the difference of early romanticism vs.
late romanticism.  But Wagner however, and this is in part how I see
the Schopenhauerian influence in Wagner, he broke with Goethe on another
fundamental point, which came as a direct result of his reading and
extension of Schopenahuers thoughts; I will offer his letter to Mathilde
Wesendonck of 07.04.1858 (it was this letter which became famous through
Minnas interception) as example.  This letter in part dealt with Wagenrs
thoughts on Goethe, more specifically the character of Faust, which Wagenr
judges as stupid for having turned from redemtion through a womans love
only to rush into the world to explore and achieve experience - The "Ewige
Weibliche" despite!  For Wagner, a Gretchen offered all the world had to
teach!  Then some pundit once remarked that "Siegfrieds departure from the
mother goddess brought him ruin, while Fausts inquisitive wanderings
brought him salvation", but somehow I don't think Wagner had wanted to hear
that.

So I will reply to some others contributions to this Wagnerthread as well:

Steve Schwartz <[log in to unmask]> replies to Chris Webber:

>>As far as "race" itself goes, it lies obstinately at the simple heart
>>of the Parsifal matter, and cannot be wished away.  The Grail Knights
>>are, at root, an exclusive set of brethren who have been sullied by sexual
>>intercourse with a female Jewess (Kundry) and can only be brought salvation
>>by a pure man of noble birth.
>
>Kundry?  Jewish?  I must have missed something.  How do we know?

Soem people find such allusions in the text; there are mentions that Kundry
is Semitic - not to confuse with Jews, which means they are people with a
certian religion, in opposite to Semite, which is a race - and Kundry is
Arabic, hence semitic.  There are even suggestions that Kundry is Parsifals
sister by half.  But a few questions araises in my brain after reading this
quotings above:  How can the graalkinghts have had sexual ntercourse with
semitic women if they are supposed to be homosexuals? And I neither not see
why Kundry should be Jewish.  Arabic, on the other hand, lies more at hand
as the story takes place in Spain during the time when Christians and
Moslems fighted for the control of this land.  They were natuarlly enemies
and therefore some allusion which some ignorant people find to be
antisemitism is actually no more racism than the Sweds hatred for the
Danish in Neumann's "Gustav Wasa".

Satoshi Akima <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I appreciate Mat's teaching of tolerance for everyone and everything.
>Even for anti-Semitism or even for Hitler.  Intolerance is what makes
>Hitlerism evil, and to be intolerant is too be like him.  The flip
>side of this is that it is also a great thing to fight for one's ideals.
>Friendship and love means to tolerate and understand somebody, but to
>have a friend is to also have an enemy.

I wanted to stress something here.  I don't support or sympathize with
Hitlers ideas or politics, and I know thats not what Mr.  Akima meant,
I just mean that I think as a generalization, tolerance is much more
productive than intolerance.  Besides Mr.  Akima chooses his words very
well in the lines I quoted above (and in parts ommitted to), and I enjoyed
reading his post.

Christopher Webber <[log in to unmask]> wrote on Kundry:

>As a woman who saw "Him" (Christ) on his way to crucifixion and mocked him,
>she is condemned to wander the world in search of salvation.  Aside from
>the trivial forensic likelihood that she was therefore semitic, Christ's
>curse links her specifically with the figure of the Wandering Jew - a
>lifelong fascination for Wagner, who earlier examined the character in the
>guise of The Flying Dutchman.

Several of Wagners characthers in the operas he found in different tales
and reshaped them to fit his stories.  Wotan for example, is a good bit
different from his Platonic Idea Odin in the Wiking Edda.  There is nothing
in the opera Parsifal which supports that Kundry is a Jew.

Christopher Webber <[log in to unmask]> goes on:

>Sleep easy.  I don't need to be convinced about the "symphonic patterns"
>in the mature Wagner operas.  The prime reason I jumped on Dr. Akima in
>the first place (without as far as I'm aware any homo-erotic intention)
>was because he did not seem able to see anything else in them.

As far as I know Mr Akima has revealed on the list to be aware of many
aspects of the Ring.

>My scepticism extended as to whether said patterns could be held up to
>justify Wagner's operatic superiority - a word that crops up with alarming
>frequency in debates with some at least of the Wagnerites.

The symphonic elaborate in Wagners operas are great to me, and to be
found on no opera before (although that some followed Wagenrs line
afterwards; Berg, Janacek, Braunfels...).  I used to say that I don't
understand the debate whether Wagner would have been a great symphonist
if he had composed symphonies instead of operas.  But to me the question
is the wrong question.  Wagner WAS a great symphonist.  Please check after
my post on "Meistersinger" in the archieves.

>As far as "race" itself goes, it lies obstinately at the simple heart
>of the Parsifal matter, and cannot be wished away.  The Grail Knights
>are, at root, an exclusive set of brethren who have been sullied by sexual
>intercourse with a female Jewess (Kundry) and can only be brought salvation
>by a pure man of noble birth.  Thus Gurnemanz seizes hopefully on the
>strapping Parsifal with these very words - "You seem noble and of high
>birth".  "Race" is of course not here a simple matter of Aryan hair or
>skin colour, but a subtler concept involving caste, sex and clan.

This saying I have heard at several times, that Amfortas wound is not
a physical wound, but a shame for having "mixed his blood" with lower
races (symbolized by Kundry), and can only be healed by a pure man of noble
birth.  I have often heard this, but nobody has explained what Parsifal, if
this is the case, actually symbolizes.

>Robert Gutman quotes the composer's intentions for Alberich fully in
>his "Richard Wagner".  Being young and callow as well as tactless, I
>quizzed Wolfgang Wagner about this specific point in a brief but memorable
>conversation I was lucky enough to have with him some years ago.  His reply
>on this was courteous but straight: "Of course.  Read what my Grandfather
>wrote."

I know.  Robert Gutman mentions it on page 161 IIRC in his opus magnificos,
but notice here is Gutman a writer, not a resarcher, as he lists no source
that strengthens his claim.

I won't question your meeting with Herr Wolfgang Wagner, but I had wished
you had brought your videocamera.  But Rickards antisemitism has been a nut
that doesn't want to crack for the Wagner clan.  I tend to believe that
they nod quietly to the talk about Richards antisemitism, as they have
figured they get rid of a lot of barking on themselves that way.

But what will stupid people find out next time to accuse Wagner the
Monster" as Deems Taylor call him; he was obviously an rabiat antisemit,
tehy say, and he had worlds greatest ego too, he must have been ill the
man.  The latter another accusation which sometimes appear and seems to
lie close to hand when judging Wagner.  There is a little truth behind it;
he was siezed by illusions and at Webers coffin he enetered a cataleptic
state.  He didn't feel well at many times, but this was thanks to the great
pressures he and others had upon him.  But if he - as he wrote in "Mein
Leben" - not had completely sane feelings when he wrote "Tristan und
Isolde" in Venezia, hasn't his madness given the world masterpieces.  Oh
dear, my words, all great genious had a glimpse of madness therein....

It is interesting to speculate about Wagners antisemitism and behaviour,
but don't let us get too speculative.  There are if you read the actual
sources, not just what biographers put together, because they were biased
in a way that is very different from as the original sources are.  When
you read Wagners letters to Minna, Jukowsky and others, where he laments
of having to behave like a jerk all the time as the only way to fulfill
his artistic goals...and I find this selfrejection very moving.  Or his
tribute to his father Geyer, in that performance of a play by Geyer in the
middle of the repetitions in Bayreuth.  When you see this side of Wagenrs
personality, you will realized that afterworld has doomed him very hard.
And with those pretentious artistic goals he had, combined with his sharp
intellect and good ability to understand philosophical problems, I more
than doubt that he would fall down to something so trivial as writing a
large opera [Parsifal] which is about antisemitism.  As well I don't
actually think there are antisemitism of importance in the Ring.  But
Schopenhauers spirit I tend more and more with the years find present.

So, under the praemisses I stated above, I'd be glad to go with Mr. Akima.

But for those who are blinded by the antisemitism in the Ring, I warmly
recommend Wischers book, which were one of, if the the most, important
source for Wagner when his original thoughts about this tetralogie begun
to take shape in his brain; You will find no antisemitism there meanwhile
it provides the actual ideological and philosophical background.

Mats Norrman, who is a homeopath after all...
[log in to unmask]