On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:20:38 -0500 Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]> writes: >There are 13 messages totalling 389 lines in this issue. > >Topics in this special issue: > > 1. handling breasts > 2. getting milk > 3. NPR and the "F" word > 4. alcohol and breastfeeding > 5. Vanilla Pacifiers > 6. Delayed Menstruation (2) > 7. breastfed babies sleeping through > 8. milk production and breast surgery > 9. Mary Breastfed Jesus > 10. Famous people who have breastfed > 11. postpartum etiquette > 12. Sleeping babies > >To post a note to the 1630+ subscribers of LACTNET, send your note >to > [log in to unmask] >To change your subscription options as in those listed below, send >computer >commands listed below, via e-mail to: > [log in to unmask] > > To leave LACTNET---- UNSUBSCRIBE LACTNET > To temporarily stop your subscription------ SET LACTNET NOMAIL > To restart mail after being nomail -------------- SET LACTNET >MAIL > For Information on other commands------------ HELP > For Information on Search Functions------------- >INFO REFCARD >Don't Know How To "Work" Lactnet? Send e-mail to >[log in to unmask] >with message reading: Get Lactnet Welcome > > LACTNET WWW Archives : >http://library.ummed.edu/lsv/archives/lactnet.html > >Kathleen B. Bruce BSN, IBCLC [log in to unmask] >Kathleen G. Auerbach Ph.D, IBCLC [log in to unmask] > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:52:21 -0500 >From: Diane Wiessinger <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: handling breasts > >>When I am demonstrating something to a Mom I constantly find myself >>grabbing hold of my breast and waving it around. Do the rest of you >use >>those little cloth breasts... > >I was going to respond to Anne privately, then thought this ought to >be a >lactnet discussion. > >As a lactating LLLLeader, I often used my bare breast (tho not around >the >dads). We'd compare bras or nipples or I'd demonstrate hand >expression, >and I was shocked and offended when professional LCs said baring your >own >breast was unprofessional. > >Now that I'm a professional LC, I virtually never bare my own breast >(I've >done so on rare occasions to reassure an insecure mom about nipple >size), >mainly I think because I'm not lactating. I'm probably a 36B, I never >wear >a bra, I'm all the time "grabbing my breast" to demonstrate >positioning, I >use water balloons and lipstick to demonstrate what makes a good >latch, and >I sometimes use a "peelable" cloth breast to show sinus location, tho >I >think the nipple/areola on them is peculiar-looking. > >My vote would be for us to use our bare breast any time it seems >appropriate in our professional judgment, to handle our covered breast >freely, and to limit our use of fake breasts because (unless they're >being >used to show something like internal anatomy) they do send a message >that >*your* breasts are supposed to be bared many times a day, but *my* >breasts >aren't to be touched. I think being too stuffy about our own breasts >can >contribute to our culture's problem with them. Others? > >Diane Wiessinger, MS, IBCLC, LLLL Ithaca, NY > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:52:59 -0500 >From: Anne Merewood <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: getting milk > >Geez I almost disagree with Dr Jack. I think a lot of Moms DON'T KNOW >their >babies are getting enough until they see the poos and pees. THAT is >HOW >they know! I always say 'What goes in must come out, 6 pees and TWO OR >MORE >GOOD SIZED poops per day is all you have to worry about'. I think that >is >more concrete for many Moms than even the pause of the chin (though >since >seeing Dr Jack's conference speech I teach that too). I mean, what if >(they >think - and I know I did) the baby pauses/wiggles his ear in front of >the >LC but not at home? What if he's just pausing to look at the TV >commercial, >not to drink? What if my breast is so big I can't see him pause, or he >only >paused once and that means he only got one mouthful of milk? Dr Jack I >am >sure you teach them with such confidence that they ARE confident about >pauses. But I think poos are pees are really obvious to absolutely >everyone..... >Anne Merewood > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:17:05 -0500 >From: Margery Wilson <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: NPR and the "F" word > >Yes...I also choked on my orange juice this morning >when I heard the AAP Guidelines being quoted as >recommending formula. Here is where the quote >seems to have originated: > >"December 2, 1997 -- America's baby doctors are >sending a strong message to new mothers: >Breastfeed your babies! Under new guidelines, the >American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that >mothers breastfeed their babies for the first year of life. >NPR's Patricia Neighmond reports the doctors say >babies do best on mothers milk for the first six months >-- and then in combination with formula for at least >another six months." >....... from www.npr.org > >Margery Wilson, IBCLC >Cambridge, Massachusetts > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:33:45 -0500 >From: "Lanning, Debi" <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: alcohol and breastfeeding > >Dr. Newman mentioned Puritanism in his post on alcohol consumption by >lactating women. He has probably hit it correctly. The reason it >bothers me is women CHOOSE to drink. Taking medications is usually a >NECESSITY. I personally don't think drinking alcohol at any time in >one's life is necessary. I did a study on infants who died while >sleeping with their parents. There were very few instances but almost >95% of the time it involved the use of alcohol or drugs by the >parents. >Sometimes it was an impaired father who smothered the baby. >Teen age girls and boys in an effort to imitate adult behavior drink, >engage in risk taking behavior and become pregnant and or diseased. >Adults also make poor choices while drinking too much. And too much >is >defined individually. You cannot determine the effects of alcohol on >any one by the number of ounces consumed. It is determined by body >weight, tolerance, time spread of the drinking, % of alcohol in the >drink, etc. As lactation specialists I believe it is always our >responsibility to err on the side of caution and watch out for the >baby. >If that means advising a woman who puts her need for alcohol ahead of >her need to provide alcohol free milk to her baby then I will continue >to advise her to pump and dump. > >Debi Lanning >St. Petersburg, FL. > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:24:46 EST >From: Marshalact <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Vanilla Pacifiers > >We had a flurry of babies addicted to the vanilla pacifiers a few >years ago. I >usually had good luck with having the mother wash with vanilla scented >soap >until I ran into one very smart baby who laughed at my attempts to >entice him >to the breast. I remembered reading Julie Menella's articles on >flavors in >breast milk and sure enough, vanilla is one that comes through. I had >the >mother add vanilla extract to a glass of milk and drink several >glasses over >the period of a day. The first three breastfeeding attempts failed, >but the >fourth time worked like a charm. Dad said the entire house smelled >like >vanilla! > >Marsha Walker >Weston, Massachusetts > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:40:10 AST >From: Judy Cormier <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Delayed Menstruation > > I have a client that is nursing her nine month old infant. The > mother's periods had resumed, but they have now stopped. The >obvious > answer would be a pregnancy, however, the baby has started to >nurse > again every 2 hours during the night - would this increase in >nursing > cause a delay in her periods when the baby is now 9 months old? >We > thought that this might be the reason but we are looking for more > scientific data, to agree or dispute with our theory. She has no > other signs or symptoms of pregnancy. > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:53:51 -0500 >From: Lisa Jones <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: breastfed babies sleeping through > >Can I respectfully submit that the talk of Ferberizing babies does >have >atleast a little bit to do with breastfeeding? Ferber is saying that >a four >month old (or was it a three month old?) does not *need* to be fed at >night, >yet this doesn't account for the digestiblity of breastmilk, growth >spurts >and subsequent supply/demand adjustments, the warmth/comfort of >mother's >breast in addition to her milk, that are part of nighttime feedings. >He >doesn't say what the breastfeeding mother should do in the night when >she had >previously been feeding her baby and now she is withholding >herself/her milk >from him? Certainly, her body will adjust to the missed feeding(s), >but >isn't she at increased risk for plugged ducts/mastitis if she stops >nightfeedings "cold turkey" rather than the normal, gradual reduction >in >feedings that happens as baby matures? > >Ferber himself would be the first to say that the "techniques" do not >work >for every baby, and in the synopsis that I read in a very mainstream >parenting magazine, he doesn't recommend this sleep training until >five to >six months old. This could be wrong, from the excerpts that Pam in >Zimbabwe, >it does seem that he feels that even younger babies can be trained... >scary >to me. > I asked mothers in our meeting "The Family and The Breastfed Baby", >as we >went around the room and introduced ourselves, to tell when their baby >began >to "sleep through the night". It just underscored for all of us what >I have >come to think about most things with babies: there is a *very* wide >range of >normal. I usually add that my first baby slept "through" from about >six >weeks old, didn't nurse to sleep from about four months old but nursed >and >went to bed awake. I then had baby #2... and believe me, if there was >*something* that I did to create baby #1's sleep habits, I *certainly* >would >have done it again. But baby#2 had a personality of his own, and HE >showed >me HIS way. I think that we can "tweak" our baby's >personalities/habits a >little bit at a time, with respect given to their capabilities and >their >feelings, to help the baby blend into the family, but to try to >*change* a >baby in a few nights doesn't respect the baby, IMHO, and *can* wreak >havoc >with their breastfeeing relationship. > I also want to mention a Ferber failure that struck me as >particularly >awful, both for mother and baby. My neighbor "ferber-ized" her then >seven >month old and at the time thought that it was the greatest thing since >sliced >bread - he was her fourth baby. Fast forward about six months, and >she tells >me what an awful sleeper he is, nurses often at night and now sleeps >with >them. BUT she had come to find out that baby had an esophogeal (sp?) >anomaly which made lying down to sleep very uncomfortable for him, in >addition to waking up in the night from the discomfort. She had >Ferberized a >baby who was basically screaming to her *I am not feeling well*!!! It >apparently was not a real "pain" cry, but a whining/annoying cry that >she >interpreted wrongly as an "I don't feel like sleeping" cry. > As Maya Angelou said: "We all do the best that we can and when we >know >better, we do better." [rough paraphrase] > >Lisa Jones, LLLL in Wellington Florida > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:06:15 -0500 >From: Denhez Louise <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: milk production and breast surgery > >Just when I had decided to go nomail for a while and a much needed >rest, >here is a case that has me stumped. I already searched the archives, >but >would need your collective wisdom to put it all together: > >Mother is a nurse, has her fourth child. Breastfed "successfully" her >three >others. The quotation marks are there because the babies were not >gaining >weight too too well, but there was no immediate danger to their >health, >and Mom weaned on her own accord at 4-5 months. Now, it is important >to >say that these three episodes took place with breast implants. > >Divorce, takes the breast implants off, remarriage, fourth baby. >Unmedicated delivery, but baby is hospitalized for dehydration at day >four, while Mom has an "enormous" engorgement. Rents a pump and >expresses >2 ounces in the first sitting, then a little bit at a time. Baby comes >back home, Mom sees an LC (certified) and does everything well, >supplementing with finger feeding and bottle occasionnally, the LC not >convinced that confusion exists. From day 1, baby not vigorous on the >breast. Seems to have taken the breast better on weeks 5 and 6, but >rapidly seems to not have enough, and is jittery on the breast. >Now, baby is 2 and a half months, she is pumping every 2 hours for >10-15 >min. at a time, after each feed or just about, baby is on the breast >only >all night long, one side after the other, and still needs about 6 >ounces >of supplementation with formula. We started domperidone (motilium) 4 >days >ago, with no change whatsoever. The lactation aid is now the only >supplementation method, but does not work so well: baby takes the >breast >when the bottle is squeezed and he feels milk in his mouth (he also >still >does not latch on well, waiting for the milk to come, and suckling >lazily) She feels the ejection reflex, but >sees very little squirting from either breast. I asked for a TSH, but, >frankly, I wonder if the removal of the breast implants did not severe >breast tissue... Her surgeon says no... What do you all think ? What >else >could we do ? How long does Domperidone take to work ? (my experience >with it has not given spectacular results, but is also quite limited). >Is >there hope for complete breastfeeding ? > >Louise Denhez, M.D., M.P.H >Montreal, Quebec, Canada > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:21:23 EST >From: DBarnes98 <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: Mary Breastfed Jesus > >This months Christianity Toaday has a beautiful picture on the cover >that I >BELIEVE is a depiction of Mary BF Jesus...............Just my >interpretation. >Any of you seen it? > >Diane Barnes >Maternal Experessions LTD >MICHIGAN > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:55:03 -0600 >From: "Patricia Gima, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: Delayed Menstruation > >> I have a client that is nursing her nine month old infant. The >> mother's periods had resumed, but they have now stopped. The >obvious >> answer would be a pregnancy, however, the baby has started to >nurse >> again every 2 hours during the night - would this increase in >nursing >> cause a delay in her periods when the baby is now 9 months old? >We >> thought that this might be the reason but we are looking for >more >> scientific data, to agree or dispute with our theory. She has >no >> other signs or symptoms of pregnancy. > > >Here is your scientific data: > >Case study of 1. > >When my baby was 1 1/2 and I was having regular periods she got a bad >cold >and for 2 days she did nothing but feed at the breast, then continued >to >feed much more than she had been, for a few more days. When she felt >better >and went off to play, I could have fed every baby on the block. I >skipped >the next menstrual period, and the one after that was delayed. > >I also didn't resume menstruating until my babies were eating a lot of >solid >foods. For some women frequency, at any time, can supress lactation. > >Patricia Gima, IBCLC >Milwaukee > >mailto:[log in to unmask] > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:33:10 -0800 >From: Glenn Evans <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: Famous people who have breastfed > >To add to the list, wasn't it Anita Carter who nursed her baby, and >also did a video on breastfeeding? Chanita > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:31:48 -0800 >From: Glenn Evans <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: postpartum etiquette > >Anne, Almost everything we teach moms at our hospital, verbally, is = >also written down in one of several pamphlets, books, hand/outs she >gets = >when she goes home. This is because we know that what they hear and = >remember is not necessarily what we told them, so we give them a >backup. > >One of these h/o is "How to tell if your baby is getting enough," on >the = >back of which is a place to list times of feeds, numbers of voids and >= >stools. We direct moms to the chart especially if the baby is still >not = >"performing well" >in the hospital, but also moms who seem particularly anxious. > >Regarding using your breast, or the cloth one, I use my own. It's = >always there, I don't forget it at someone's bedside. And if I'm >using = >mine for a demo, mom has to use hers for a return demo, which is part >of = >the point, getting her to feel comfortable touching herself. > >Sincerely, Chanita, San Francisco > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:19:13 EST >From: Avw4kim <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Sleeping babies > >I think the discussion of how babies sleep is a never ending thing. >All new >mothers are asked almost the first day of the baby's life. "How does >she >sleep? Is she a good baby?" This is another plug for LLL and prenatal >classes. Parents to be need to realise that babies wake up at night. >After >the birth of my first child I spent a great deal of time focusing on >her lack >of sleep. Day times she only slept one or two 15 minute naps, night >time not >sleeping unless she was 'attached'. I finally learned to let her be >herself. >At 18 she still does not sleep in, although I haven't seen her in my >room at >night for years. The next baby I had decided to turn the clock around >just >feed him. He only nursed every 4 to 5 hours and nursed once maybe >twice at >night. My next Daughter almost followed her brothers pattern just a >little >more frequency. I was so smug I knew it all, just relax and they will >sleep. >Then came Haley!!! She was a high need, hold me baby. She nursed all >the >time. She would sleep 5 to 6 hours at night but widethen come awake >at >2:30am and not go back to sleep for hours. What does this mean?. >Could I >have Faberized my middle kids? Probably, but I wouldn't have dreamed >of it. >The other two would have screamed for weeks. That is one of the >great >advantages of being close and nursing your child on demand. New >Mothers get >to know their child's personalities even in the first few weeks. Why >do >mothers need to be the one who feeds? Because one person needs to get >to know >this child intimately. Then the baby expands to Dad, Siblings, and >extended >family. We are raising another child who did not get this from >anyone. What >a difference! She tries to cuddle but can't quite relax. She seems >distant. >Her frustrations are many. She needed to be cherished as an infant >she missed >the most important part of life. Is my house always full of peace and >love >because I nurtured my babies? No, it can be wild. I loose my cool, I >forget >to listen. But deep down I hope my kids remember that they were >important >enough to be listened to from the moment of birth. > >Sorry I got a little carried away. I hope you are all ready for >Christmas. >Haley (6) is already planning to sleep under the tree so she can see >Santa. > >Kim Hartwick LLL, Homeschooling mother of Nik (15), Robin(10), >Kelly(7), and >Haley(6), (Lindsay is in college), and part time worker in Husbands >Dental >practice. All of us are busy!!! > >------------------------------ > >End of LACTNET Digest - 15 Dec 1997 - Special issue >*************************************************** >