On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:20:38 -0500 Automatic digest processor
<[log in to unmask]> writes:
>There are 13 messages totalling 389 lines in this issue.
>
>Topics in this special issue:
>
>  1. handling breasts
>  2. getting milk
>  3. NPR and the "F" word
>  4. alcohol and breastfeeding
>  5. Vanilla Pacifiers
>  6. Delayed Menstruation (2)
>  7. breastfed babies sleeping through
>  8. milk production and breast surgery
>  9. Mary Breastfed Jesus
> 10. Famous people who have breastfed
> 11. postpartum etiquette
> 12. Sleeping babies
>
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>Kathleen B. Bruce BSN, IBCLC [log in to unmask]
>Kathleen G. Auerbach Ph.D, IBCLC [log in to unmask]
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:52:21 -0500
>From:    Diane Wiessinger <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: handling breasts
>
>>When I am demonstrating something to a Mom I constantly find myself
>>grabbing hold of my breast and waving it around. Do the rest of you
>use
>>those little cloth breasts...
>
>I was going to respond to Anne privately, then thought this ought to
>be a
>lactnet discussion.
>
>As a lactating LLLLeader, I often used my bare breast (tho not around
>the
>dads).  We'd compare bras or nipples or I'd demonstrate hand
>expression,
>and I was shocked and offended when professional LCs said baring your
>own
>breast was unprofessional.
>
>Now that I'm a professional LC, I virtually never bare my own breast
>(I've
>done so on rare occasions to reassure an insecure mom about nipple
>size),
>mainly I think because I'm not lactating.  I'm probably a 36B, I never
>wear
>a bra, I'm all the time "grabbing my breast" to demonstrate
>positioning, I
>use water balloons and lipstick to demonstrate what makes a good
>latch, and
>I sometimes use a "peelable" cloth breast to show sinus location, tho
>I
>think the nipple/areola on them is peculiar-looking.
>
>My vote would be for us to use our bare breast any time it seems
>appropriate in our professional judgment, to handle our covered breast
>freely, and to limit our use of fake breasts because (unless they're
>being
>used to show something like internal anatomy) they do send a message
>that
>*your* breasts are supposed to be bared many times a day, but *my*
>breasts
>aren't to be touched.  I think being too stuffy about our own breasts
>can
>contribute to our culture's problem with them.  Others?
>
>Diane Wiessinger, MS, IBCLC, LLLL  Ithaca, NY
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:52:59 -0500
>From:    Anne Merewood <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: getting milk
>
>Geez I almost disagree with Dr Jack. I think a lot of Moms DON'T KNOW
>their
>babies are getting enough until they see the poos and pees. THAT is
>HOW
>they know! I always say 'What goes in must come out, 6 pees and TWO OR
>MORE
>GOOD SIZED poops per day is all you have to worry about'. I think that
>is
>more concrete for many Moms than even the pause of the chin (though
>since
>seeing Dr Jack's conference speech I teach that too). I mean, what if
>(they
>think - and I know I did) the baby pauses/wiggles his ear in front of
>the
>LC but not at home? What if he's just pausing to look at the TV
>commercial,
>not to drink? What if my breast is so big I can't see him pause, or he
>only
>paused once and that means he only got one mouthful of milk? Dr Jack I
>am
>sure you teach them with such confidence that they ARE confident about
>pauses. But I think poos are pees are really obvious to absolutely
>everyone.....
>Anne Merewood
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:17:05 -0500
>From:    Margery Wilson <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: NPR and the "F" word
>
>Yes...I also choked on my orange juice this morning
>when I heard the AAP Guidelines being quoted as
>recommending formula. Here is where the quote
>seems to have originated:
>
>"December 2, 1997 -- America's baby doctors are
>sending a strong message to new mothers:
>Breastfeed your babies! Under new guidelines, the
>American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that
>mothers breastfeed their babies for the first year of life.
>NPR's Patricia Neighmond reports the doctors say
>babies do best on mothers milk for the first six months
>-- and then in combination with formula for at least
>another six months."
>....... from www.npr.org
>
>Margery Wilson, IBCLC
>Cambridge, Massachusetts
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:33:45 -0500
>From:    "Lanning, Debi" <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: alcohol and breastfeeding
>
>Dr. Newman mentioned Puritanism in his post on alcohol consumption by
>lactating women.  He has probably hit it correctly.  The reason it
>bothers me is women CHOOSE to drink.  Taking medications is usually a
>NECESSITY.  I personally don't think drinking alcohol at any time in
>one's life is necessary.  I did a study on infants who died while
>sleeping with their parents.  There were very few instances but almost
>95% of the time it involved the use of alcohol or drugs by the
>parents.
>Sometimes it was an impaired father who smothered the baby.
>Teen age girls and boys in an effort to imitate adult behavior drink,
>engage in risk taking behavior and become pregnant and or diseased.
>Adults also make poor choices while drinking too much.  And too much
>is
>defined individually.  You cannot determine the effects of alcohol on
>any one by the number of ounces consumed.  It is determined by body
>weight, tolerance, time spread of the drinking, % of alcohol in the
>drink, etc.  As lactation specialists I believe it is always our
>responsibility to err on the side of caution and watch out for the
>baby.
>If that means advising a woman who puts her need for alcohol ahead of
>her need to provide alcohol free milk to her baby then I will continue
>to advise her to pump and dump.
>
>Debi Lanning
>St. Petersburg, FL.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:24:46 EST
>From:    Marshalact <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Vanilla Pacifiers
>
>We had a flurry of babies addicted to the vanilla pacifiers a few
>years ago. I
>usually had good luck with having the mother wash with vanilla scented
>soap
>until I ran into one very smart baby who laughed at my attempts to
>entice him
>to the breast. I remembered reading Julie Menella's articles on
>flavors in
>breast milk and sure enough, vanilla is one that comes through. I had
>the
>mother add vanilla extract to a glass of milk and drink several
>glasses over
>the period of a day. The first three breastfeeding attempts failed,
>but the
>fourth time worked like a charm. Dad said the entire house smelled
>like
>vanilla!
>
>Marsha Walker
>Weston, Massachusetts
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:40:10 AST
>From:    Judy Cormier <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Delayed Menstruation
>
>     I have a client that is nursing her nine month old infant.  The
>     mother's periods had resumed, but they have now stopped.  The
>obvious
>     answer would be a pregnancy, however, the baby has started to
>nurse
>     again every 2 hours during the night - would this increase in
>nursing
>     cause a delay in her periods when the baby is now 9 months old?
>We
>     thought that this might be the reason but we are looking for more
>     scientific data, to agree or dispute with our theory.  She has no
>     other signs or symptoms of pregnancy.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:53:51 -0500
>From:    Lisa Jones <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: breastfed babies sleeping through
>
>Can I respectfully submit that the talk of Ferberizing babies does
>have
>atleast a little bit to do with breastfeeding?  Ferber is saying that
>a four
>month old (or was it a three month old?) does not *need* to be fed at
>night,
>yet this doesn't account for the digestiblity of breastmilk, growth
>spurts
>and subsequent supply/demand adjustments, the warmth/comfort of
>mother's
>breast in addition to her milk, that are part of nighttime feedings.
>He
>doesn't say what the breastfeeding mother should do in the night when
>she had
>previously been feeding her baby and now she is withholding
>herself/her milk
>from him?  Certainly, her body will adjust to the missed feeding(s),
>but
>isn't she at increased risk for plugged ducts/mastitis if she stops
>nightfeedings "cold turkey" rather than the normal, gradual reduction
>in
>feedings that happens as baby matures?
>
>Ferber himself would be the first to say that the "techniques" do not
>work
>for every baby, and in the synopsis that I read in a very mainstream
>parenting magazine, he doesn't recommend this sleep training until
>five to
>six months old.  This could be wrong, from the excerpts that Pam in
>Zimbabwe,
>it does seem that he feels that even younger babies can be trained...
>scary
>to me.
>  I asked mothers in our meeting "The Family and The Breastfed Baby",
>as we
>went around the room and introduced ourselves, to tell when their baby
>began
>to "sleep through the night".  It just underscored for all of us what
>I have
>come to think about most things with babies:  there is a *very* wide
>range of
>normal.  I usually add that my first baby slept "through" from about
>six
>weeks old, didn't nurse to sleep from about four months old but nursed
>and
>went to bed awake.  I then had baby #2... and believe me, if there was
>*something* that I did to create baby #1's sleep habits, I *certainly*
>would
>have done it again.  But baby#2 had a personality of his own, and HE
>showed
>me HIS way.  I think that we can "tweak" our baby's
>personalities/habits a
>little bit at a time, with respect given to their capabilities and
>their
>feelings, to help the baby blend into the family, but to try to
>*change* a
>baby in a few nights doesn't respect the baby, IMHO, and *can* wreak
>havoc
>with their breastfeeing relationship.
>  I also want to mention a Ferber failure that struck me as
>particularly
>awful, both for mother and baby.  My neighbor "ferber-ized" her then
>seven
>month old and at the time thought that it was the greatest thing since
>sliced
>bread - he was her fourth baby.  Fast forward about six months, and
>she tells
>me what an awful sleeper he is, nurses often at night and now sleeps
>with
>them.   BUT she had come to find out that baby had an esophogeal (sp?)
>anomaly which made lying down to sleep very uncomfortable for him, in
>addition to waking up in the night from the discomfort.  She had
>Ferberized a
>baby who was basically screaming to her *I am not feeling well*!!!  It
>apparently was not a real "pain" cry, but a whining/annoying cry that
>she
>interpreted wrongly as an "I don't feel like sleeping" cry.
>  As Maya Angelou said:  "We all do the best that we can and when we
>know
>better, we do better."  [rough paraphrase]
>
>Lisa Jones, LLLL in Wellington Florida
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:06:15 -0500
>From:    Denhez Louise <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: milk production and breast surgery
>
>Just when I had decided to go nomail for a while and a much needed
>rest,
>here is a case that has me stumped. I already searched the archives,
>but
>would need your collective wisdom to put it all together:
>
>Mother is a nurse, has her fourth child. Breastfed "successfully" her
>three
>others. The quotation marks are there because the babies were not
>gaining
>weight too too well, but there was no immediate danger to their
>health,
>and Mom weaned on her own accord at 4-5 months. Now, it is important
>to
>say that these three episodes took place with breast implants.
>
>Divorce, takes the breast implants off, remarriage, fourth baby.
>Unmedicated delivery, but baby is hospitalized for dehydration at day
>four, while Mom has an "enormous" engorgement. Rents a pump and
>expresses
>2 ounces in the first sitting, then a little bit at a time. Baby comes
>back home, Mom sees an LC (certified) and does everything well,
>supplementing with finger feeding and bottle occasionnally, the LC not
>convinced that confusion exists. From day 1, baby not vigorous on the
>breast. Seems to have taken the breast better on weeks 5 and 6, but
>rapidly seems to not have enough, and is jittery on the breast.
>Now, baby is 2 and a half months, she is pumping every 2 hours for
>10-15
>min. at a time, after each feed or just about, baby is on the breast
>only
>all night long, one side after the other, and still needs about 6
>ounces
>of supplementation with formula. We started domperidone (motilium) 4
>days
>ago, with no change whatsoever. The lactation aid is now the only
>supplementation method, but does not work so well: baby takes the
>breast
>when the bottle is squeezed and he feels milk in his mouth (he also
>still
>does not latch on well, waiting for the milk to come, and suckling
>lazily) She feels the ejection reflex, but
>sees very little squirting from either breast. I asked for a TSH, but,
>frankly, I wonder if the removal of the breast implants did not severe
>breast tissue... Her surgeon says no... What do you all think ? What
>else
>could we do ? How long does Domperidone take to work ? (my experience
>with it has not given spectacular results, but is also quite limited).
>Is
>there hope for complete breastfeeding ?
>
>Louise Denhez, M.D., M.P.H
>Montreal, Quebec, Canada
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:21:23 EST
>From:    DBarnes98 <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Mary Breastfed Jesus
>
>This months Christianity Toaday has a beautiful picture on the cover
>that I
>BELIEVE is a depiction of Mary BF Jesus...............Just my
>interpretation.
>Any of you seen it?
>
>Diane Barnes
>Maternal Experessions LTD
>MICHIGAN
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:55:03 -0600
>From:    "Patricia Gima, IBCLC" <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Delayed Menstruation
>
>>     I have a client that is nursing her nine month old infant.  The
>>     mother's periods had resumed, but they have now stopped.  The
>obvious
>>     answer would be a pregnancy, however, the baby has started to
>nurse
>>     again every 2 hours during the night - would this increase in
>nursing
>>     cause a delay in her periods when the baby is now 9 months old?
>We
>>     thought that this might be the reason but we are looking for
>more
>>     scientific data, to agree or dispute with our theory.  She has
>no
>>     other signs or symptoms of pregnancy.
>
>
>Here is your scientific data:
>
>Case study of 1.
>
>When my baby was 1 1/2 and I was having regular periods she got a bad
>cold
>and for 2 days she did nothing but feed at the breast, then continued
>to
>feed much more than she had been, for a few more days.  When she felt
>better
>and went off to play, I could have fed every baby on the block.  I
>skipped
>the next menstrual period, and the one after that was delayed.
>
>I also didn't resume menstruating until my babies were eating a lot of
>solid
>foods. For some women frequency, at any time, can supress lactation.
>
>Patricia Gima, IBCLC
>Milwaukee
>
>mailto:[log in to unmask]
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:33:10 -0800
>From:    Glenn Evans <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Famous people who have breastfed
>
>To add to the list, wasn't it Anita Carter who nursed her baby, and
>also did a video on breastfeeding?  Chanita
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:31:48 -0800
>From:    Glenn Evans <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: postpartum etiquette
>
>Anne,  Almost everything we teach moms at our hospital, verbally, is =
>also written down in one of several pamphlets, books, hand/outs she
>gets =
>when she goes home.  This is because we know that what they hear and =
>remember is not necessarily what we told them, so we give them a
>backup.
>
>One of these h/o is "How to tell if your baby is getting enough," on
>the =
>back of which is a place to list times of feeds, numbers of voids and
>=
>stools.  We direct moms to the chart especially if the baby is still
>not =
>"performing well"
>in the hospital, but also moms who seem particularly anxious.
>
>Regarding using your breast, or the cloth one, I use my own.  It's =
>always there, I don't forget it at someone's bedside.  And if I'm
>using =
>mine for a demo, mom has to use hers for a return demo, which is part
>of =
>the point, getting her to feel comfortable touching herself.
>
>Sincerely,  Chanita, San Francisco
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:19:13 EST
>From:    Avw4kim <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Sleeping babies
>
>I think the discussion of how babies sleep is a never ending thing.
>All new
>mothers are asked almost the first day of the baby's life.  "How does
>she
>sleep? Is she a good baby?"  This is another plug for LLL and prenatal
>classes.  Parents to be need to realise that babies wake up at night.
>After
>the birth of my first child I spent a great deal of time focusing on
>her lack
>of sleep.  Day times she only slept one or two 15 minute naps, night
>time not
>sleeping unless she was 'attached'.  I finally learned to let her be
>herself.
>At 18 she still does not sleep in, although I haven't seen her in my
>room at
>night for years.  The next baby I had decided to turn the clock around
>just
>feed him.  He only nursed every 4 to 5 hours and nursed once maybe
>twice at
>night.  My next Daughter almost followed her brothers pattern just a
>little
>more frequency.  I was so smug I knew it all, just relax and they will
>sleep.
>Then came Haley!!!  She was a high need, hold me baby. She nursed all
>the
>time.  She would sleep 5 to 6 hours at night  but  widethen come awake
>at
>2:30am and not go back to sleep for hours.  What does this mean?.
>Could I
>have Faberized my middle kids? Probably, but I wouldn't have dreamed
>of it.
>The other two would  have screamed for weeks.  That is one of the
>great
>advantages of being close and nursing your child on demand.   New
>Mothers get
>to know their  child's personalities even in the first few weeks.  Why
>do
>mothers need to be the one who feeds?  Because one person needs to get
>to know
>this child intimately.  Then the baby expands to Dad, Siblings, and
>extended
>family.  We are raising another child who did not get this from
>anyone.  What
>a difference!  She tries to cuddle but can't quite relax.  She seems
>distant.
>Her frustrations are many.  She needed to be cherished as an infant
>she missed
>the most important part of life.  Is my house always full of peace and
>love
>because I nurtured my babies?  No, it can be wild.  I loose my cool, I
>forget
>to listen. But deep down I hope my kids remember that they were
>important
>enough to be listened to from the moment of birth.
>
>Sorry I got a little carried away.  I hope you are all ready for
>Christmas.
>Haley (6) is already planning to sleep under the tree so she can see
>Santa.
>
>Kim Hartwick LLL,  Homeschooling mother of Nik (15), Robin(10),
>Kelly(7), and
>Haley(6), (Lindsay is in college), and part time worker in Husbands
>Dental
>practice.  All of us are busy!!!
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of LACTNET Digest - 15 Dec 1997 - Special issue
>***************************************************
>