Hi Lydia,
I am always happy to have a conversation and I think that on this topic there has not been as much conversation as there should have been. I think though that your personal comments are unhelpful. I am speaking of export of culture and policy have not targeted any individuals. If you have evidence to suggest that the desexing of language has not come from the US and is not being spread (sometimes forcibly) to other countries and cultures, please share. The authors of the paper have seen it in their work.
It would be helpful if you were able to address the content of the paper, specifically you suggested that you were not aware of any drawbacks or pitfalls of desexing language and I wondered whether you had not read the examples provided in the paper or whether you didn’t think the examples we provided were not a problem?
Just to clarify regarding the writing of the paper, I wrote the first draft which was a matter of pulling together all the ideas that the other authors (and myself) had brought forward and then we worked (all of us revising, adding, subtracting) from there over a period of months. It was a true collaboration and personally I found it just fabulous to be able to work with such knowledgable, principled people with such long histories of advocacy to protect the rights of women and children in diverse ways in diverse contexts. Our names may hold weight and I think we were all scared about whether we would be abused for writing this paper but we felt strongly that it was very necessary. As it turned out the reception has been quite positive and it has helped open discussion, which can only be a good thing. We can only solve problems if we can talk about them.
Karleen Gribble
Australia
>
> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2022 11:17:38 +0200
> From: Lydia de Raad <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Paper on use of sexed language in communication on maternity
>
> Hi Karleen,
>
> Thank you for continuing this discussion. And you know what? I don't even know where to start in participating and letting the light fall on other aspects, as this is só multi-faceted.
>
> First of all: your name and reputation. You are a highly respected voice in the world of IYCF, with a PhD. If and when you say or write something, people listen and consider your words deeply researched and rock-solid. When I say or write something, it is as worthy as communicating my shoppinglist. There is a difference in reception of something based on the sender.
>
> I think this group all know what a top-notch-research looks like, and how many hours and effort go into that, and how difficult it can be. And now you present a 'paper' which you 'published' with 'colleagues'. I don't really want to go into semantics here in this multilingual forum, but this is not the way I expect an *opinion* to be presented.
>
> I looked at the collegues who séémed to have done research together, but at the end of the article you clarify you wrote the article and had the others review it. And that is *fine*, it is perfectly listed, but just not of the quality I would expect. And yes, I know my expectations are mine and it is not up to you to live up to them.
>
> I live in the Netherlands, a small country in the NorthWest of Europe. I am multilingual, fluent in Dutch, German and English - and manageable (reading mostly) in French, Spanish and Italian. And a tiny bit of Arabic nowadazys, as I have new neighbours. The Netherlands have in the past centuries (as many other European countries) been a colonizing country - focussing mainly on the 'East' (Indonesia) - but we did have our colonies in the USA, Latin America (Suriname) and Africa (South Africa). I don't think I can speak on how unwanted colonialism is, as I think I should shut up, take the back seat and lísten to the colonized.
>
> When I looked at the authors, I couldn't help but noticing both you, Jenny and Hannah are white, English speaking Australian. I guess everyone knows Australia used to belong to the Aboriginals, untill England decided it was theirs. It feels weird hearing about colonialism in that light.
>
> The same goes for Roger Mathisen, who is a white male, working in Vietnam - if we consider expat a modern form of colonialism. Nils Bergman, is a white Scandinavian doctor who did most of his work in SouthAfrica. He must surely be aware of the huge inclusive language debate within Scandinavia. Aron Gupta is in India, and as far as I know him - he is Indian. But he had to work in the language (English) of the oppressor (GB).
>
> And no, I don't mean to be nasty or mean to people who can't help where they were born and how they look like. They are probably all fine and fantastic people doing their best. I dó however think it is weird that precisely thése people (well, except Aron I suppose) pull the 'colonialism'-card.
>
> There is more :-) But that is for another day :-)
>
> Lydia, LLL, Netherlands
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Lactation Information and Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Namens Karleen Gribble
> Verzonden: woensdag 27 april 2022 04:52
> Aan: [log in to unmask]
> Onderwerp: Paper on use of sexed language in communication on maternity
>
> Hi Lydia,
> I was interested in what you said about not being aware of any pitfalls or unintended consequences of desexing the language of female reproduction and maternity. We detailed many of these in our paper here https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full <https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full> and in particular in Supplementary File 1. I wondered if you hadn’t seen these or whether you didn’t think that they were a problem. I’d be very interested in hearing more about your views on this.
>
> I am not aware of any culture or language that does not use sexed language. All have words to designate male and female and mothers and fathers. However, I am open to the prospect that I could be mistaken. Similarly, while I agree with you on the other harms of colonialism you describe, I am not aware of any culture where it was not understood that there are two sexes.
>
> Kind Regards
> Karleen
>
>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 12:22:35 +0200
>> From: Lydia de Raad <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Paper on use of sexed language in communication on maternity
>>
>> Hi Keyena,
>>
>> Thank you for your words. It would be helpful for me to know which country your are from?
>>
>> As to the paper presented, my eye fell on a sentence used by Karleen in her email:
>>
>> 'to avoid pitfalls and unintended consequences.'
>>
>> I have been wrecking my mind whát (which?) 'pitfalls and unintended consequences' that could be?
>>
>> As for the international perspective:
>> I miss the cultures not using sexed language (Tagalog, parts of the Japanese cultural system), I miss the cultures/languages deliberately moving away from sexed pronouns (Scandinavia).
>>
>> Colonialism, either by the USA or by European countries (centuries befóre the USA) led to wiping out original cultures and putting the religious beliefs in place. Two sexes, nudity is inappropiate, and worshipping nature is a sin.
>>
>> Lydia, LLL-Leader, Netherlands (Europe)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ***********************************************
>
> Archives: http://community.lsoft.com/archives/LACTNET.html
> To reach list owners: [log in to unmask]
> Mail all list management commands to: [log in to unmask]
> COMMANDS:
> 1. To temporarily stop your subscription write in the body of an email: set lactnet nomail
> 2. To start it again: set lactnet mail
> 3. To unsubscribe: unsubscribe lactnet
> 4. To get a comprehensive list of rules and directions: get lactnet welcome
>
> ***********************************************
>
> Archives: http://community.lsoft.com/archives/LACTNET.html
> To reach list owners: [log in to unmask]
> Mail all list management commands to: [log in to unmask]
> COMMANDS:
> 1. To temporarily stop your subscription write in the body of an email: set lactnet nomail
> 2. To start it again: set lactnet mail
> 3. To unsubscribe: unsubscribe lactnet
> 4. To get a comprehensive list of rules and directions: get lactnet welcome
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of LACTNET Digest - 27 Apr 2022 to 28 Apr 2022 - Special issue (#2022-44)
> *****************************************************************************
***********************************************
Archives: http://community.lsoft.com/archives/LACTNET.html
To reach list owners: [log in to unmask]
Mail all list management commands to: [log in to unmask]
COMMANDS:
1. To temporarily stop your subscription write in the body of an email: set lactnet nomail
2. To start it again: set lactnet mail
3. To unsubscribe: unsubscribe lactnet
4. To get a comprehensive list of rules and directions: get lactnet welcome
|
