Comparing North America to Northern Europe. I'm near Stockholm Sweden at lat 60, and don't speak for the rest of the country. As Lloyd pointed out there are big differences between north and south. But when my location came up in the discussion, I'll ad a few thoughts from my side of the pond. One thing is often forgotten in this recycled annual discussion. That the bees react to day length at least as much as temp in spring. They start brood rearing when days get longer, to build up numbers for summer foraging. At lower latitudes, with colder winters (inland climate)they will start up earlier than up north even if it's warmer there. The shorter the summer, the faster they need to build up. Northern bees will start later and keep a larger brood nest to compensate. This is the reason you need more winter feed in northern US and Canada than we ever consider giving them in Sweden. It also gives you strong enough colonies to split before the honey flow, difficult here without loosing honey. Season is just too short at lat 60. Spring splits are usually made small to build up during summer for replacing next winters losses. Alternatively made strong enough to winter in autumn after honey flow. I'm wintering on 20 kg / 44 lb of dry weight sugar. The old dark bee wintered on 12 kg / 26 lb. We got frost at night now, bees haven't been out for 2 weeks. I expect first cleansing flight in April. Most bees are 2 months old going into winter, so there are some old bees starting up next year. When they start later they rely much on spring forage for build up. Coltsfoot, Willows, Dandelions. Smaller colonies will wait until they can fly before starting up brood rearing. There is another aspect of wintering that intrigue me. There are a number of anecdotes about hives having a hard time during winter producing better next summer. Br Adam long ago stated that bees need to have a cold winter to produce good. And he kept detailed records. Just as if there is a memory function within the colony despite the continual changing of worker bees through the season. Bill wrote about epigenetics on Aug 3, That might explain what some are seeing.... Question arises, can we get to a state where we protect them too much? Even if we get a larger number of bees through winter, we might actually get more honey in the end if we gave them a little harder time. Allen, if you ever stop splitting ;-) and take a crop, you might see some difference between wood and plastic hives... -- P-O *********************************************** The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to: http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html Access BEE-L directly at: http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A0=BEE-L