In message <[log in to unmask]>, Alan Riach <[log in to unmask]> writes >The bees don't seem to particularly appreciate pristine new looking >excluders, they like a bit of coating, but I have noticed that they are >fussy about the dimensional construction of excluders. Having hundreds of both styles in service I can honestly say there is not a lot of evidence in our outfit to say the bees prefer one to the other. Get the spacing between the boxes (and the frames above and below) correct and all seem almost equally well accepted. Even the perforated zinc sheets, with no addition of bee space, are passable although we use these last. >Here in the uk, some of the equipment makers construct wire excluders >with the wire in the centre of the frame(incorrectly IMO), some with the >wire neatly set in a wire depth on the underside of the frame(underside >for top beespace hives). Dave Cushman might come in on this, but I think you would be hard pressed to find centre placed ones made much after 1970, if even so recent, as I cannot date any we have to later than 1960. This is a pattern normally called a Waldron, and the support for the excluder wires lies vertically and it was necessary to centre the excluder in the frame to allow the wire to have enough room in the bee space between the boxes. They were superceded almost immediately the somewhat superior Hertzog grids became available. This grid allowed placement on one side of the frame, reducing the fragility of construction that the Waldron entailed. The bees may prefer it a little, but we cannot say that there is much difference as far as the bees are concerned. The biggest issue we find is the British practice of having different spacings in the brood chambers and in the honey supers. ( I refer to the practice of Hoffmans in the brood boxes and Manleys in the honey supers, a practice that, if starting again today, I would never adopt ) This causes ventilation issues and if the wood of the boxes shrinks a bit with age, can also cause bee space problems and obstructed passage up the hive for the bees (especially over the centre combs of the nest), and this in turn sometimes leads to some quite spectacular burr/brace comb issues in the excluder area. Reasonably accurate bee space and same spacing above and below radically reduces these issues and make the choice of excluder type secondary. > (All components put on the hive should have a clear top >beespace and no underspace) Of course this depends what hive type you have and even then, what your national variant is like. Even something as universal as Langstroth is top bee space most places, but bottom bee space in some. As for cleaning excluders? Well I agree most with Allen. Unless the wax is causing an obstruction to the bars above sitting down properly we just leave them as they are, and the bees do what they want with the ladder comb. Quick rip off with the butt end of the hive tool if some has to be removed. -- Murray McGregor :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::