Bob said; > Those beekeepers working with survivor queens see absolutely zero benefit in small cell. The first time you hear the above you wonder why. The way the varroa tolerant bee (6 way closed population system) we are using came about was not by current accepted methods (which like Yoon failed for many ) but by using varroa pressure to cull survivors. The final test of a varroa tolerant bee involves varroa pressure. Danny Weaver tried to explain his varroa pressure method. Varroa pressure is the only way I and others know of to speed up the selection process. Using small cell *might* have been a shortcut but would we have ended up with a truly varroa tolerant bee for all situations or only a varroa tolerant bee which was so as long as downsized on 4.9mm cell size? Keith said: Dr. Y. S. Kim (Yoon) was using feral survivors on large cell combs and failed but refused to use the same type feral survivors on small cell combs. If he had his results may have been different. In my opinion he declined to try his feral survivors on small cell for the reasons I gave. I might have considered adding the small cell step a few years ago ( when results were poor) but we have found success without using the small cell downsize to 4.9 step. The method involved the use of a six way closed instrumental insemination breeding program over a period of six plus years . Breeder queens from feral survivors and expensive breeder queens from the bee lab. Many breeder queens could not handle the varroa pressure and died. At least production 50 queens at a time were ordered and tested from most of the queen producers around today. These queens were left untreated with varroa pressure added. In some cases all of these hives died. In others maybe only one hive survived so the queen was given further testing and may have eventually made the way into the closed breeding survivor program. The beekeeper in charge of the program at times wondered if the project would be a success. Money was tight and pots of bean soup were made. A beekeeping family owns rights to the above bee and a patent has been taken on the process. The Russian bee is still around and big improvements are being made. Our group believs they have got all the Russian genetics released from the bee lab. I believe I have got all the genetics released from the program out back in my Russian instrumental insemination breeder queens and in my Russian yards. The Russian bee takes a commitment as introduction is most times difficult and management needs modification from the norm. Also pure Russian/Russian production queens are as rare as an exotic animal . Hybrids are common. I will continue to work with the Russians as they are certainly a challenge even for me but but my friends wonder why I do not simply switch to the closed system bee and forget the Russians. I think the many discussions I had with Dr. Siminuki and his belief in the success of the Russian project has made me want to prove "Shim" was right. Will the Russian bee go the route of the "Yugo" bee? To be honest in my opinion the Russian bee equals the six way closed breeding queens in the varroa department due to the natural selection process the Russian bee came from (100 plus years?) which is the best way to come up with a varroa tolerant bee. However the six way system bee trumps the Russian bee in most other ways due to the careful selection process over the last six years of traits which are important to beekeepers. If small cell works for you and all the others I am very happy. My opinion is I am afraid small cell will always be considered a passing fad and beekeeping books 40-50 years from now will reflect same. The focus now by myself and others will be to install varroa tolerant bees in all hives. I hope to finnish the process this spring. Bob :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::