I may be a complete fool to ever post on this topic again, but I think I can supply some citations without getting dragged into another drunken brawl. > Evidently, a dance follower learns only the > general vicinity of the recruitment target... > This... can be especially difficult in an > experimental situation where the recruitment > target is a tiny dish of sugar water, not a > sizable patch of flowers. Yeah, the whole "feeder dish" approach is semi-bogus. It is a single "flower" with an infinite supply of nectar. Not very authentic. The "beauty" of the "inherent sloppiness" of bee dance is that it tends to NOT result in sorties to a single point, but results in sorties to an general area. This is a good thing, since groups of trees are more common than single trees, and fields of blossoms more common than single plants. > Does anyone have a reference for this study using harmonic > radar to track dance followers? I think that Tom is referring to the work of the "Rothamsted Radar Entomology Unit". Here's some of their papers on the subject: Riley, J.R. & Osborne, J.L. (2000) "Course control during foraging movements: observations using harmonic radar." Proceedings of the 20th Royal Society Symposium "Insect Movement: Mechanisms and Consequences". Smith, A.D., Reynolds, D.R. & Riley, J.R. (2000) "The use of Vertical-Looking Radar to continuously monitor the insect fauna flying at altitude over southern England." Bulletin of Entomological Research 90, pp. 265-277. Riley, J.R., Smith, A.D., Reynolds, D.R., Edwards, A.S., Osborne, J.L., Williams, I.H., Carreck, N.L. & Poppy, G.M. (1996) Tracking bees with harmonic radar. Nature 379, 29-30. Capaldi, E.A., Smith, A.D., Osborne, J.L., Fahrbach, S.E., Farris, S.M., Reynolds, D.R., Edwards, A.S., Martin, A., Robinson, G., Poppy, G.M. & Riley, J.R. (2000) "Ontogeny of orientation flight in the honeybee revealed by harmonic radar." Nature 403, 537-540 Osborne, J.L., Williams, I.H., Carreck, N.L., Poppy, G.M., Riley, J.R., Smith, A.D., Reynolds, D.R. & Edwards, A.S. (1997) "Harmonic radar: a new technique for investigating bumble bee and honey bee foraging flight. Acta Horticulturae 437, 159-163. Riley, J.R., Smith, A.D., Reynolds, D.R., Edwards, A.S., Osborne, J.L., Williams, I.H., Carreck, N.L. & Poppy, G.M. (1996) "Tracking bees with harmonic radar." Nature 379, 29-30. Their web site includes the following summary (watch the line wrap in the following URL!): http://www.dysonperrins.worcs.sch.uk/Pupils/Year%2013/Jo's%20Project/Current%20P rojects.htm Harmonic radar "We are using the newly-developed technique of harmonic radar to study honey bee navigation in collaboration with scientists from the Freie Universitat Berlin. Harmonic radar enables us to monitor the position of free flying honey bees over large distances and with far greater accuracy than has previously been possible. We are attempting to resolve the question of whether bees are able to use a 'cognitive map' rather than relying on 'route memories'. Von Frisch published the now famous 'waggle dance' which he claimed bees could use communicate the position of suitable forage areas. This 'dance language' has been somewhat controversial with some scientists being sceptical of its efficacy. We have used harmonic radar to measured the flight trajectories of bees recruited after observing the waggle dance, this has enabled us to settle (hopefully once and for all) this controversy in favour of Von Frisch. We are also examining our flight data to see what effect the wind has on flight behaviour, paying particular attention to the role odour plumes have in the recruitment of bees to new forage sites." Another interesting area of work has to do with how honeybees measure distance flown, which appears to be a form of "dead reckoning", tracking the apparent movement of the landscape below the bee, an approach that has been fooled by sending the bees through a "funhouse" optical maze, and then looking at the (longer) "distance" the bees report in their dancing. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/02/000207071327.htm And if anyone wants to persist in holding the position that "bees are incapable of overt communication other than via pheromones", they should read this: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.04/quorum.html Yep, even BACTERIA can communicate, and in ways that can only be called "sophisticated". As far as cognitive arguments go, where it is asked "how could bees do all the math required to translate a dance into a location?", please shut down your computer, and go outside to play "catch" with your dog. Note that your dog can catch the frizbee or ball in mid-air, even though he has no math skills at all. jim (From bacteria to elephants, we're all just basic elements. And we all turn to compost when we die.) :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/BEE-L for rules, FAQ and other info --- ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::