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Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology

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From:
Mark Burlingame <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 2015 17:47:21 -0400
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With all due respect, no.  I'm not a good chemist, Dick (meaning that's not my degree, and I have to think hard about chemistry), but I am a decent physiologist.  The conditions in the synapse preclude any useful degradation of the bond between the neonic and the receptor, because the binding coefficient of the neonic is so much greater than that of the native acetylcholinesterase that there is no contest.  That translates to "irreversible", given ambient conditions and lifespan of the bee.

Christina

Sorry for the follow on post but, what you are saying here is supporting the fact that neonics are NOT irreversible and demonstrating your basic lack of understanding basic enzymology and basic enzyme inhibitor kinetics.  The C14 labeling experiments from the 2004 Suchail paper that Randy referred to clearly, indisputably, shows that neonics ARE cleared.  So, what you are naively calling "irreversible ambient conditions" is what anyone familiar with basic pharmacokinetics would simply call body maintaining compartment levels of drug concentration over the IC50 of the target enzyme.  This is how ALL enzyme inhibitors work, how all drugs work.  Neonics show very clear ADME (absorbtion, distribution, metabolism, and excretion).  The compounds have the intended effect while at inhibitory concentrations and then are cleared.  It seems you want to use the term irreversible, because if something is truly irreversible then the E in ADME isn't there and trace amounts of "toxin" has effects well above what the binding constant would suggest.  however, you clearly realize based on your above statement that you can no longer use the formal definition of irreversible to support your arguement.  Personally, I call this fishing, or hand waving.  

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