a couple Charles Linder snips followed by> my comment.. 

Not fair,  or correct,  You can't fairly use terms like "cherry picking" and "straw man"  just because you disagree.   One man's cherry picking is another mans gold nugget.  Throwing terms at the discussion in a personal form is.....???

>I think you are splitting hairs here Charles although certainly everyone tend to pick up on details that conforms to their OPINION or bias.  What we should be doing here is viewing various information + and - and then come to some conclusion that seems reasonable.  IMHO no one who has the long term interest in bees and beekeepers should be defending some position just because it complies with their world view.  Some of us will simply cut to the chase and find the simple reason or cause and some will generate more complex models of the world... neither of which are absolutely exclusive sets one to the other.


For those who don't have time to read,  it’s a great compilation of information on resistance,  citing hundreds of strains  and highlighting what we know as well as what we don't know.  Bottom Line,  while many are sure "overuse" is the problem,  we actually don't know for sure.  Many "resistant" strains are already naturaling occurring and are simply unknown to us

>resistance happens and it cause is really not that difficult to figure out.  many many bugs have become resistant to this or that spray and the mechanism is quite clear.  PRETENDING that this function (how it works which is really the very BASIC question of science) makes your argument less than creditable.  Repetitive collective human behavior in regards to the history of 'resistance' would at least suggest to me why antibiotic is now showing up in honey samples which does have the possible negative effect on individual health.


We keep referring to propalactic treatment,  it’s a garbage term thrown about by those of us with no specific knowledge of the situation.

>This makes you sound Charles as if you know ALL about everyone and everyone.... including lots of folks you have never met and don't really know.  Personally I try to discourage hobby beekeepers from this behavior and know lots of commercial guys whom I do know well enough to know that any such discussion will fall on deft ears.  TM is actually one of those commonly used treatments that was routinely used and quite often not in line with the description on the label (read the label closely if you wish to have some understanding).  Even 30 years ago based on the widespread use and more often misuse some folks knew even then that resistance would be an issue eventually.  

Don't misread and think I disagree with the simple concept we may get by with less,  we very well may.  The problem is that regulations such as this are an idiotic (IMO) way to handle it.  Free market works fine,  and has for a long time.   Anitibiotic free chicken has become a marketing tool and a staple in 5 years.  This is a classic case of one group of people thinking they are smarter than the rest,  and need to force a point with fines and government backing, because they know the argument is weak. There are no winners here.  Just bullies and fees.

>Well I can as an economist (very temporarily taking off my simple beekeepers hat) describe to you any number of cases where the so called free market (do note the word free and the basic concept from the same area of study that nothing is free) do not work so well. Secondly always keep in mind that any political/economic system is simple a model of how folks think things work in the real world.  At the very best it is a simplification of a more complex system reduced to some model folks can understand.  In reality the only place 'free markets' exist and have worked is purely in folks minds. There are any number of basic conditions (assumptions) which are required for the theory that we call 'free market' or more properly the mercantile system to work. It takes no great mind to consider these individually and collectively and come to the decision that these are more like fantasy than anything that works in the real world.

>Way off topic.... it should be noted that although there are a few nuggets from the works of Adam Smith worth considering it should also be stated that he was a known and paid apologist for the rising mercantile class in Europe.

Gene in Central Texas...    

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