i find it telling the level of personal attacks going on here.

yes, i posted some links that did not support my claims. i posted these links after quite a bit of offlist pressure, after i had already _politely asked_ for patience, as we were in the middle of preparing 2 talks.  i should not have bowed to the pressure, and i should have "put my ducks in rows".  in the end, however, i apologized (most of the vocal posters on this list generally drop a topic when they make mistakes).  in the end, i did provide a good cite (and almost irrefutable logic...that antibiotitcs interfere with bacteria that have an antagonistic effect on chalkbrood).

i've said quite a few things recently...and i've backed them up with good research.  no, this is not "irrefutable proof" of anything...no more than any 1 study (or group of studies) is irrefutable proof of anything.

lots of words have been put in my mouth.  let me be clear.  i don't advocate "purely natural beekeeping", and i don't approach things the way i do out of some philosophical mission....my motivation is pure practicality.

the hive is not just a 'super-organism' of bees, but a 'super-super organism' of bees and microbes.  these microbes (and the bees) form a "web" of interrelationships.  many microbes produce substances that are toxic to other microbes (and even bees) in varying degrees...many produce substnaces that are nutrients to other microbes (and bees).  these are not simple 1 on 1 relationships...it is a network, a web of dependence.  many of these microbes are only known to exist in one environment (like the honey stomach of the honeybee), and have clearly co-evolved with the bee over something like 100million years.

picture this "web" as a sphere...a ball.  if these releationships were fixed, were rigid (like a billiard ball), the ball (the web) would shatter when stressed (like the "tree bending in the wind" analogy that is commonly cited).  instead, this is a squishy rubber ball.  stress (dropping the ball, hitting it with a bat, etc) causes the ball to deform, absorb the "impact" and rebound.  there are over 8000 types of microbes making up this web/ball, and their relative populations change and influence each other dynamically based on location, season, stress, food sources,etc.

our approach to keeping bees is one that recognizes the importance of this "supporting cast", and treats it with the respect it deserves...not out of some kind of "new age" spiritual belief...not out of some kind of "save the planet" dogma, but out of pure practicality...this is the environment in which the bees evolved and survived for some 100million years...and it is too complex for us to quantify in any real meaningful way....never mind our inability to substitute an artificial set of controls to accomplish similar results.

can we substitute the flora in our healthy guts with chemicals?  can we keep humans healthy in a completely sterile environment (inside and outside the body)?

yes, fumidill is made from the fungus that causes stonebrood...and could be considered a "natural" substance in the hive...if not for the quantity.  perhaps a scientist could quantify for us the level of stonebrood fungus that would need to be present in the hive in order to result in a similar amount of the fumidil antibiotic that is applied by beekeepers, and to compare this to a sub-lethal infection of stonebrood....i'm willing to bet that it is orders of magnitude above the level of stonebrood that would kill a hive.

yes, organic acids occur in the hive, and are "natural substances"...but the levels used are out of whack with what would normally be in hive.  the microbes (nor the bees) in the hive have never, through all of evolution, been exposed to anything close to such levels.

treatments with organophosphates, pyrethroids, antibiotics, fungicides, organic acids, essential oils inside the hive are outside the scope of the microbial web's ability to deal with.  the "ball cannot bounce back"....which is why when such treatments are used, their usage must be continued...the dynamic relationships between the microbes are shattered, and they can no longer do their part to keep the honeybee colony functional.

yes, there can be some "bouncback" from some of these...but we expect that the "soft treatments" (which are toxic to a much broader spectrum of microbial life as well as cells/organs of honeybees than even a broad spectrum antibiotic like cipro) are especially problematic.  killing a big chunk of these microbes (which simply must happen when organic acids are vaporized within the hive over a period of time...or fed in syrup) a couple of times a year simply must have long term implications for the "super-super organism" of the beehive.

none of this is news...it's pretty straight forward.

now, wrt migratory beekeeping.  this is how we feed ourselves as a nation.  the relationship between big farms and migratory beekeepers is well established.  these farms (especially the monocrop farms that use herbicides to kill off the weeds) both need insect pollination, and are unable to support populations of insect pollinators.  

the farmers (or "agribusinsesses") need to lure the beekeeper to the farm at the right time of year.  this isn't much different from a tree luring a honeybee with sweet nectar in order to get it's own (the trees) pollination requirements met.  in the case of the almonds, this lure is money (and i have no problem with money).  the prices being paid make it worthwhile for beekeepers to bring bees to california from clear across the country by the hundreds and thousands (which simply is not the same thing as carrying a few hives on donkeys).  the feeding required, the treatments required, and the almost assured exposure to disease (by having so many hives in such close proximity...both within an orchard or feedlot, and the general proximity of all the almond groves) are negative influences on the beekeepers decision to make such a trip with their bees.  apparently, $150/hive is enough these days to overcome the negatives.

the payoff can be huge. like any investment, the things that control the price include, barriers to entry (having enough bees to offer to the almonds, having enough money to invest to get them moved to the almonds), supply (how many bees are available), demand (how many trees are there that need pollinating)...and risk (will my bees get sick, will my bees die, will my bees get stolen, will i get paid, etc).  in all investments (and make no mistake, bringing bees to the almonds is an investment), high returns generally go hand in hand with high risk.

so, what's my point?  that migratory beekeepers having trouble is to be expected...the price being paid is a good indicator of this.  i understand the stresses involved, and i understand the motivation, and "need" to use these treatments to keep the bees alive, to pay the bills, to live.  but it's like any other high risk investment...if the chemical controls being used were foolproof, or even worked predictably, we wouldn't be having this conversation....and there would be more migratory beekeepers bringing bees to the almonds, bringing down the price paid per hive.

i don't blame the beekeepers...this is the system we have for growing food.  in the long run, i think things have to change...but that's not by simply stopping migratory beekeeping...the whole food production system must change (eventually).  is the money offered "sweet enough nectar" to attract the beekeepers? at this point, it seems to be.  but what if beekeepers refused to place bees in monocrops?  what if they refused to place bees in the cranberries (where dave mendes testified to congress that his bees picked up 7000 ppm fungicides...because they are applied according to label to the very open blooms that the bees are there to pollinate...nevermind to the water the bees are drinking)?  what if beekeepers only placed their bees where due consideration on the health of the bees was made by the farmer?  what if the "nectar" of $150/hive wasn't enough?  what if $300/hive wasn't enough?  what if the beekeepers concerns were first and foremost focused on the long term health of their bees...knowing that this is the foundation on which effective pollination (and honey production) rests?

is this a pipe dream?  perhaps...but the increase in treatments in the hive since the mites came is staggering.  the pr on ccd that "pesticides" are to blame, yet the use of organophospahtes, pyrethroids, organic acids, essential oils are never mentioned....and i stand firmly behind my contention that these things are harmful to the 'super-super organism', and bypasses it's ability to adapt to challenges...they are overpowering a careful and elastic set of relationships that have kept bees (and their microbes) alive for 100 million years.

i don't have an answer for the whole industry...but the fact that a few "hobby/sideline" beekeepers pointing these things out, doing things a different way, and talking about it are so threatening that the level of personal attack has reached the point it has here is very telling.  the fact that "chemical free beekeeping" is the theme for eas next year is telling.  you are all more than welcome to keep doing things they way you are doing them...i certainly won't stop you.

if the microbes are not important...if the treatments do not have serious negative effects on the 'super-super organism'....if the current model and path being used by the industry is sustainable then keep doing it.  but the feeling i get is that there is fear...fear that one "hobby" beekeeper in arizona, and a beekeeping couple with good research skills, good reasoning skills, a good understanding of the importance of the microbial culture to the health of the bees, just over a dozen hives, and a willingness to speak out have a solid basis for what they do and say.

have it your way. the bees are all doing fine.  the chemical controls are necessary and proper.  beekeepers are having no real problems.  the current system for how we grow and pollinate food works just fine, and there is nothing to improve.  nothing that the beekeepers do should be held up to scrutiny.  microbes are irrelevent, and need no consideration when treating the bees.

i'll end here...i have to pack.  i had the wisdom to book a hotel room that does not have high speed access, so i will not likely be posting again until thanksgiving or so...have a good turkey everyone (or tofurky if that's your thing).

deknow

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