Been pondering a reply to this for several days.   Hard to put to words without being spun and sounding like a fool....  so hang with me.


Don's point,  Was IMO a fair point,  we as beeks do a lot of silly stuff "just because " it worked once.   But I disagree with his logic for the following reason.  He cited Europe's losses  as the benchmark.   

First off,  the system we use for counting losses here in the US is horrible to say the least.  Ask an serious beekeeper and they will laugh at the sillyyness of the surveys,  so participation is off,  and if you study politics and physcology you quickly see that the USDA survey is inaccurate and based on large livestock numbers,  and the BIP survey so far has been nothing more than a push poll to increase funding.  I do have hopes for the BIP survey,  as did many others,  but that group so far has not made much in the way of improvements in the math or the concepts.   Simple logic tells you if we use those numbers we have no bees.  The truth is far from that.   USDA numbers suffer from serious lack of participation, with those who are more successful being more likely to avoid them.  The ones most likely to do the surveys here are the hobby people,  which again skews the data to the horrible (see below)  They are so excited to be part of a "group"  they glady fill out the surveys.

I cannot comment on all the EU numbers or the ones Don is referring to,  but it does seem that they are better at accounting.  The ones I have seen do account for increases and seem to be well thought out.


Secondly,  I would suspect that most with skills would agree the average husbandry skills of beekeepers is horrible at best.  Present company is obviously excluded. If your reading this you're not the average beekeeper,  so please don't twist it,  Go to a local meeting or talk to hobbyist and see what I mean.  Compared to any other areas of serious AG husbandry,  and our group is filled with odd ducks,  with some interesting ideas,  and a lot of misinformation and poor skills.  That is the normal for small beekeepers,  In AG those people went broke in the 70's.  No active group of BOND type cattle farmers that I am aware of.

Here the entry barrier for beeks here in the us is non existent. Lots of excess money and time creating a hobby niche that is skewing the data,  I suspect a lot more so then our friends positions across the pond.

And lastly on this point,  which we are discussing, is regulation.  While most countries over there have been using Formic and OA for a long time.  Those countries have been more involved in allowing and approving or staying the heck out of treatment methods.  I also suspect that the form of Varro they have may have a play in this,  but have been unable to verify the geographical differences between Destructor and Jacobsoni.  They have had and have been dealing with mites a tad longer and it shows.


This is not to say I think Don is wrong,  Unfortunately hes probably right on the money,  With some of the skill sets displayed by beekeepers taking away a tool that has been misused is probably a good thing.   His note on how we as beeks throw things out we should not,  is 100%  But I do think education was better plan than the one that was picked.



I had hopes for this new rule,  but they were not the hopes most here would agree with.  I had hoped that the rules would make beekeepers understand the complete hypocrisy and silliness of trying to regulate from above.  With many big names trying to control what farmers do,  I had hoped a taste of this would make them think twice.  Alas,  it seems that self assessment is a skill set that is gone from most.  That was the only hope I really had for it.   But alas  that hope is gone,  as I see that those some of us would refer to as scofflaws have already put work around in place.


To Randys point  

" I wasn't suggesting in any way that beekeepers should be allowed unrestricted use of antibiotics.  The evidence is quite solid that we need to restrict antibiotic use in all livestock."

I disagree completely with that statement.    We could debate it at nausea like many topics,  just do a quick google search for Pro,  and then Cons.  But in my opinion that is a feel good statement made by an outsider.  While bowing to the knowledge base,  One really needs to look and see the BIG picture.   It is far to easy for use to armchair quarterback this topic,  and the topic when looked at in REAL depth,  not just off handly commented on, is huge,  touching on economics of farming,  Feeding the world,  and a bit on philosophy ( should we save these technology for the future at the cost of today?)


Here we are as beekeepers  whining about the new regulation,  but we refuse to accept that every livestock producer just got hit with the same club.  Now some of us as stated think that’s good,  I think its horrible.  For those of you who hate mega farms,  you need to realize this is a club for small operators again.  Mega farms,  A. have been limiting antibiotics as much as practical already (cost factor) and B  already have staff vets looking at this.  We have 2 major pork operations here in my area,  both have staff vets on hand,  not a thing changed.  Rest assured that is the case across most big outfits. For chicken and hogs.  Cattle is a bit different as it’s a mix.

SO to understand this you need another piece of the puzzle.  Take a hog,  when I raised hogs the average margin was around 12.00 a head.  I understand its closer to 9.00 now,  cattle around 100 back then,  and I understands  a bit better now...  So in the past small guys  would call the vet when a problem arose,  and from hands on training they would get an education,  and with vet approval and direction learn to doctor some on their own.  Handling simple stuff on their own.  Most serious producers are dam good at it.  You have to be when your entire life depends on it.  One lost hog  takes the margin from 12,  same as cattle.  Much different than bees where you can double your crop in bees,  and profit on honey,  the average income on bees for most is around 300 a hive.  But a hive can be replaced for less than 100,  keep that in mind.( no need to debate the numbers just general commercial values)

So now we have a new reg,  can't buy a dose down at the feed store anymore,  now you need a  90$ min. vet house call. Now,  that’s if you live in an area where its even possible.  The new crop of veterinarians has been focused on Aunt Martha's cat,  that’s where the money is.  A SEVERE shortage of good qualified old school large animal vets out her in AG country.  Not as bad as a beekeeping vet,  but horrible none the less.  15 years back I still raised horses and cattle,  my vet lived 57 miles away.  Luckily he was a one of the good ones,  and most vacininations were self administered.


So now,  we need a vet to approve everything.  So you think that 9.00 profit hog gets a 100.00 vet bill?  Tough call.  I suspect margins on small guys just got hit,  prices will continue to climb,  and small operators just took another hit in the gut. And what changed??  Absolutely nothing.  No some will swear antibiotic usage just got reduced.  I would bet cash its not the case.  Scoflaws will find a way,  vets will write tickets (look at the opoid crisis) and big operators just now have onother form to fill out and mail off.

And for what?  Some will say we use to much,  and that raises the resistant strains,  to what end?  Another 30 years down the road?  Kicking today's can under the concept of "hope?"  not my area of prognostics.   Should I not use a antibiotic to save a life today, just because it may risk another life in the future?  I am not quite qualified to make that statement. 

But it does seem that many feel they are,  and they seemingly have won the day with the new rules.  Jokes on us though,  as these new rules only help the vets, lawyers and government workers.  And I strongly bet that there is no chance that we will ever be able to say with any truth,  that they made a lick of difference.  The whole rules and regulations are based on spending money "just in case" 

	 I am 100% sure resistant strains will continue.....

	I am 1000% sure that many will continue to blame current overuse as the reason.

In the mean time,  write that check to the vet you cant find for bees,  and remember other small farmers are just as irritated.

Just my thoughts for the last few days on the  crayziness I see.   In the mean time Due to the obvious resistant strains of varro being generated by misuse of Varrocides,  I am asking my state rep to sponsor a bill to control and regulate mite treatments....  and should you care to sign on.....quite sure I can cite the issue with antibiotics as my logic,  any cosingners???




Charles

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