>Since  Randy has called Suchail's other work concerning the toxicity
levels of imidacloprid on bees "completely bogus"

I have no criticism in general with Suchail's meticulous studies, and thank
her for her extraordinary work (her 2004 C14 study is wonderful).  But in
that one particular study (2001) there was a clear serious error, which
should be immediately apparent to anyone at first glance of the graphs.

I'm not here to attempt to "prove" any pesticide to have zero adverse
effects--EVERY chemical on Earth can exhibit adverse effects.  Rather, what
I'm curious to gain (and transparently share with the List) is a better
understanding of the basis of Christina's hypothesis.  Since Christina is a
trained neurologist, she is in a good position to educate us.

Neonics, despite being widely used (read that "vastly overused"), are
seldom found at levels that exert overt toxicity to bees.  But there are
clearly sublethal effects upon behavior, learning, immune function, and
perhaps reproduction.

In order to better understand potential neurological effects, it is
critical for us to know whether they are reversible or not, since both the
parent compounds as well as the metabolites appear in general to be largely
eliminated in a matter of days from a bee's body.

If the damage to the bee's brain is indeed irreversible, we need to know
this!  Such irreversibility should be easily tested for, either by C14
labeling, or behavioral testing (such as proboscis reflex response or
orientation tests).

So can everyone please take a deep breath and let it out : )

Can we now start fresh?

If minute amounts of neonic parent compounds or metabolites do indeed exert
lasting, irreversible effects upon workers or queens, then we in the
beekeeping community need to demand that such testing be part of higher
tier testing by our regulatory agencies.

When in previous discussion with Dr Henk Tennekees I asked for supportive
evidence for this hypothesis (with the EPA risk assessors and the editors
of the bee journals copied), he was unable to do so.

Christina, I thank you for revisiting this hypothesis now that there has
been a great deal more research performed on the subject.  Can you  (or
anyone else), please now provide supportive evidence (from any study) for
the irreversibility of neurological effects from any of the neonics, from
which we can then begin polite discussion?  (I've cc'd Dr. Tennekees).

Thanks in advance : )

-- 
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
www.ScientificBeekeeping.com

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