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From:
Richard Cryberg <[log in to unmask]>
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Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Sat, 31 Oct 2015 06:29:34 -0700
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Fischer said "So, after the initial steps in metabolization, one can take that ten
trillion molecules, and double, maybe triple it to get the number of
molecules that will block a receptor. "

This simply is not true as I have already pointed out, but obviously not very well.  I will try and give enough detail so everyone can understand why this is not true.  I am sorry about how long it is.  This stuff is not simple and includes many possibilities along the way.

1.  When you make a metabolite the original IMI is converted to the metabolite so the original molecule can not possibly bind as it is no longer there.

2.  It is true you can make multiple metabolites from one parent molecule.  You can add a -OH group to the parent molecule.  You can add a C=C double bond where the original molecule had a HC-CH single bond.  You can chop something off the original molecule such as cutting the whole molecule in half.  In the first two cases the product molecules may or may not still have an active binding site.  In the chop it in half case one of the metabolites might retain a functional binding site.  In all cases the IMI is no longer there so all that is left is possibly one single molecule with one binding site at most.  Under no circumstance can one single original pesticide molecule lead to more than one single metabolite molecule with an active binding site.  So, you can never "create" more binding sites then were present in the original dose of poison.  Poisons are not capable of self replication.  They are not alive.  The only possible exception would be where
 the original molecule was a dimer and contained two active binding sites.  Such a molecule is a cute theory but will never be commercial as its transport properties will be miserable and it will not be effective in doing its job as a result.

3 .  The net result is if you dose ten trillion molecules of toxin after the very first stage of metabolism you will have something between zero molecules and ten trillion molecules of toxic metabolites left.  The actual number depends on the particular molecule you are looking at.  In general the range would be from zero to maybe five or seven trillion molecules of active metabolites left and of course zero molecules of the original substance.  Generally, the first stage of metabolism results in some destruction of binding sites.  In most cases all the binding sites are destroyed or at least the distribution coefficient is reduced to the point the metabolite is considerable less toxic than the original molecule.  Rarely the binding sites have increased activity.  Such original molecules are called pro-insecticides or pro-drugs.  But, even with the pro cases you only make at most one molecule of active substance from one molecule of original dose.  Pro
 substances can be important as the parent may have better transport characteristics than the metabolites.  This allows the parent to be absorbed and transported before metabolism, followed by metabolism and action of those pesticide or drug metabolites.

It is routine for most molecules to biodegrade by more than simply one single metabolic route leading to a whole host of metabolites.  This metabolism continues until one of two things happens.  Either the degradation continues until some compound is produced that the animal or plant views as food and incorporates that molecule into its own chemical structures or the degradation continues until the product molecules are transportable to the excretory functions and eliminated from the body.  In the food case such a metabolite would be acetone or methyl ethyl ketone or acetate.  All three of these are normal chemicals your body produces every day in the normal course of digesting and metabolizing the foods you eat.  Acetate from a pesticide is every bit as good a food as acetate from the food you eat.  Same with acetone or methyl ethyl ketone.  In the elimination case the molecules (either food or pesticide) might be burned clear down to carbon dioxide and
 eliminated by respiration,  Or in mammals, reptiles or fish to molecules that are filtered out by the kidneys and eliminated in urine.  Insects do not have kidneys to my knowledge so must have some other way of getting rid of nitrogen wastes so however they do this could get rid of metabolites.  Or metabolites can be transferred back into the digestive tract and eliminated in the feces.  Often the parent molecule is excreted directly by one of the excretory routes also.  In fact in some cases this elimination of parent is the single largest way of getting rid of the material.  It is worth noting that part of the pesticide registration requirements is to determine metabolic pathways in plants, vertebrates and the environment.  So, the claim these routes are not known is false.  There is no requirement that such data be released to the general public althou very often it is published in technical journals.

While I am talking about metabolism I should also address gene functions.  After all, genes are what produce the chemicals that cause metabolism to happen.  There was a paper not long ago that showed that feeding honey lead to higher activities of some genes that are thought to be good to degrade pesticides.  The nonsense conclusion was that this higher activity indicated a healthier bee.  Genes in their normal state are turned off.  A gene by itself it totally worthless.  Genes must be turned on by control mechanisms both embedded and external to DNA that are not part of the actual gene itself.  These days geneticists also consider the parts embedded in the DNA as genes, althou they do not fit the idea that genes produce either RNA or ultimately protein.  If degradation genes are turned on, as shown by the presence of RNA, this means some environmental stimulant turned them on in all cases.  Obviously there are many toxins in honey that can and do turn
 such genes on.  All the flavor and odor components in honey that we find so attractive are toxins and unwanted chemicals in our bodies and in the bees body.  Thus, when we, or bees, eat honey such toxins are going to turn on genes whose purpose is to metabolize those poisons to the point that they can be eliminated or used as actual food as I described in the paragraph above.

Dick 

" Any discovery made by the human mind can be explained in its essentials to the curious learner."  Professor Benjamin Schumacher talking about teaching quantum mechanics to non scientists.   "For every complex problem there is a solution which is simple, neat and wrong."  H. L. Mencken

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