Kathy,
Thank you for your constructive criticsm.  I know little about bees and was
only talking from my herbal experience for discussion and brainstorming
purposes.  I have learned some useful infor from your comments.
 
See below for individual replies.  I hope others will read both of our
comments and add their own if they wish.
 
At 06:01 PM 2/6/98 -0500, you wrote:
 
>Curtis,
>I'm a bit confused by some of what you have written and have commented
>below on the parts that i don't understand, that don't make sense to me,
>or that conflict with what i know &/or have observed about honeybee
>behaviour.
>
>Curtis Seyfried wrote:
>> For Discussion. Please read carefully and fully, do not use this
>> advice
>> until a full discussion and understanding has occured.
>> Iam new to this list and know a little about bees.  I have also
>> studied
>> Western  &  chinese herbal medicine, Homeopathic medicine,
>> aromatherapy and
>> other alternative therapies for 26 years now.
>> >From this I feel that I Might have somethig to offer this group.
>> >From a herbal medicine (hm) perspective parasites of any form can
>> only take
>> a foothold in, or on, an individual when their natural immune system
>> is not
>> functioning properly.  This can be caused by many factors,
>> environmental
>> stress and pollutatnt, poor nutrition, and others.
>So far, this makes sense to me, and i would identify both the varroa and
>the tracheal mites to be environmental stress (of the choices in your
>statement). They are certainly not caused by poor nutrition or
>pollution.
 
    Poor nutrition can be a mitigating factor in susespibility to
parasites.  Our general environment has been under much stress, pollution
in general is one of those stresses.  There has been little research on the
effects of pollution on the chemical Quality of plants grown in a polluted
environment. And since we have already polluted most all of this planet we
will never know.
 
>> It seems to me that bees, like other life forms, would naturally be
>> able to
>> throw off parasitic mites if their immune systems were functioning
>> normally.
>
>This is where i begin to get confused...  it seems to me that the
>parasites (external stress) would *cause* immune system problems and it
>doesn't follow that manipulating the immune system in any other way (as
>with vitamins or homeopathy) would *cause* the parasite to go away.  I
>seem to recall that when each of these mites was
>accidentally/inadvertantly/whatever  introduced to apis mellifera,
>colonies were pretty darn healthy, so by this reasoning, why would they
>have been infected in the first place?
 
Parasites, WOULD additionally cause immune system problems, if this is an
immune system problem. I was only hypothesizing for discussion from my
experience with other species parasites.
 
>> Cats and Dogs can be rid of fleas and other parasites by
>> including in the diet nutritional supplements that parasites dislike :
>>
>> Garlic, Brewers Yeast, Thiamine (a B vitamin).  I have also rid my
>> cats of
>> tape worms by using an old antibiotic remedy called "Colloidial
>> Silver"
>> (CS).  CS is a titration (minute dilution) of the metal silver in
>> deionized
>> water.  It is created through an electrochemical process and creates a
>> 1
>> part per million or lower concentration.
>
>These two examples seem to me to contradict what you said above about
>manipulating the immune system to throw off the parasites. In both
>instances you have used things that target the parasites, either by
>making the cat/dog taste/smell bad to the parasite or by making
>theintestine uninhabitable for the tapeworm(s).
 
This is not a contradiction, but IN ADDITION TO healthier immune system
functioning.
 
>> I am not recomending any of these to be given to bees, just discussing
>> them
>> so far.
>>
>> Herbally Echinacea (Echinacea Augustofolia ),  AKA. Purple Cone
>> Flower, is
>> an immune system strengthener.  Golden Seal  (Hydrastis Canadensis L.
>> ) is
>> also an immune system herb, which also acts synergistically to
>> strengthen
>> the action of herbs it is combined with. Marigold ( Calendula
>> Officianalis
>> ) is also another healer, it also is resinous which might increase
>> propolis
>> production. There are other herbs I will get to in later discussions.
>>
>> Possibly if Echinacea, Goldenseal, Garlic and Calendula were planted
>> in
>> proximity to the hives, thusly allowing the bees to pollinate the
>> flowers
>> and pick up the healing properties, this MAY help.
>
>According to "Plants & Beekeeping in Canada" by Jane Ramsay and my own
>observations in my garden:
>Echinacea has only sometimes been a limited late source of nectar, has
>occasionally been reported as unattractive to honeybees, is not a pollen
>source and honeybees are rarely seen on them in the author's garden nor
>in mine.
>Goldenseal is not even mentioned as a possible nectar or pollen source,
>perhaps because it is grown in more southern climates? perhaps because
>it is of no interest to honeybees?
>Garlic (and other allium) are mentioned as being a good nectar source,
>sometimes pollen source, producing more nectar in moist areas but some
>allium do not have nectaries, and unless planted for seed (or for forage
>as you suggest) they are harvested before they flower.  My bees have
>loved leeks and chives, but i've never let my garlic bloom.
>Marigold is mentioned as a moderate source for late pollen. I seldom see
>bees working my marigolds.
>
>Besides the limited attractiveness of these plants to honeybees, what
>would make us think that tinctures that are useful to human immune
>systems and sometimes to other mammals would stimulate the health of
>honeybees?
 
I was not aware of the unattractiveness of these plants to bees.  As to
cross-species effectiveness, it is NOT always so, but possible.
Historically Humans learned most herbal lore from observing what plants
animals used when they were sick.  We also learned from experimentation,
sometimes unsuccessful, sometimes deadly.
 
>> Direct administration of these herbs to bees would be dangerous as the
>>
>> quantities to be given is difficult, to say the least, to determine.
>>
>> BUT, Homeopathic titrations of these herbs could be administered
>> SAFELY to
>> bees in sugar water. Homeopathy takes the original substance and
>> dilutes
>> (titrates) it many times. After this process there is CHEMICALLY no
>> trace
>> of the original chemicals present.  Homeopathy believes that the
>> ENERGY of
>> the substance is what effects the cure, and is what is transferred in
>> the
>> titration process. Homeopathy has been used extensively in treating
>> babies
>> and in vetinary medicine for its safety and NON-poisonous nature.
>
>At the risk of tangling with another person's belief system, have there
>been further scientific studies (than the ones i have seen) that prove
>homeopathy to be more effective than placebo effect? If so, then please
>point me to them. If not then i would doubt that homeopathy would
>stimulate a honeybees immune system, since by all reports psychotherapy
>and anger management therapy has failed to work for AHB :^).
 
Tangle away as you wish, I enjoy open honest discussion as long as it is
not personally denegrating. So far I have enjoyed your comments.  Honest
Discussion between inteligent individuals is how ideas are formed.  You may
have interpretations or knowledge that I have never experienced, and
vica-versa.  By sharing we expose each other to new knowledge, and we each
interpret each others knowledge base from our own unique perspectives and
experience.
 
>
>On a more serious note, planting for bees "treatment" needs is not a new
>idea. When mint oils were first being studied as treatment for tracheal
>mites, we planted WAY too much mint in our home apiary (you can taste
>the mintyness of some frames of honey) and i *believe*  it has helped
>the bees in our home yard (not the same as scientific study).  There may
>also be things that can be planted that honeybees like that will repel
>varroa as well.
>
>If i understand the research correctly (& i'm paraphrasing) studies have
>shown that there's an odor (or someway) that the newly emerged
>honeybee's cuticle communicates to the mites what age it is, and that
>because it is young nurse bees that the mites quest for, if one can mask
>their smell or make them smell older, less mites breed, therefore less
>mites.  I would guess that this is how Dr Sammataro's crisco patties
>work, likewise the mint oils and thymol, & probably also the FGMO.
>
>Has anyone else on the list planted for their bees (other than for
>nectar or pollen sources)???
>What did you plant & why??  Do you think it was a successful planting??
>
>TTYL,
>Kathy
>
>> Well enough for now, I'll add more at a later time.
 
>
>
 
Peace ,
Curtis Seyfried.