Bob and Elizabeth Harrison wrote:
>
> Hello Lloyd,
> I allways enjoy your posts and thought for the sake of discussion
> posting the opposite view point.  I agree in part with everything you
> have posted and have respect for Sue Colby & Dr. Marla Spivak's work.
> Having met both and attended lectures given by both(more than one each)
> and read i believe every article each have wrote in bee magazines I am
> qualified to comment.  I regret to say i have not tried Sue's queens but
> have Marla's with good results.  Italians are the bees i prefer.  When
> properly managed Italians outproduce all other strains i have tried.
>
>  As I look back on 35 years of beekeeping, one of the most significant
>  changes has been the "development" of the Carnolian strains.  25-35
> years  ago the #1 difficulty of beekeepers here in the Northeast was
> over-wintering  bees.  In hindsight, that was because we were all using
> Italians, and   they were maintaining huge clusters and brood-rearing
> all winter!
>
> Many beekeepers winter Italians with little problems even as far north
> as Stirling,Ont.. My friend David Vanderduesin (spelling?) of River
> Valley Apiaries Sterling, Ont. winters Italians in a single deep hive
> body. He sells a tape showing his operation and wintering methods. I
> haven't talked directly with david in several years so I hope he doesn't
> come on line and say he has quit those *non-wintering Italians* and
> switched to Carnolians!
>
>   Carnolians has always been known for over-wintering with small
> clusters and no brood, but were "nasty", and  built  up brood so fast in
> the spring that they were always swarming!
>
> Glad you put the above in your post.  Supercedure queens from the most
> popular sold today Carnolian's seem to exhibit many of the above traits.
> I would change "built up brood so fast in the spring that they were
> allways swarming to simply *allways swarming*.  I never found the
> Carnolians to be *nasty* but feel they were not as forgiving a bee when
> handled incorrectly.  I would add finding a queen in a strong Carnolian
> hive can be a challange.  I might add they allways seemed to run on the
> frames a but more than my * well behaved* Italians.
>
>  In the 1980's Sue Cobey assembled several strains of Carnolians and
> made further selections.  By then the technology for instrumental
> insemination of  queens had advanced to the point where it was possible
> to maintain strains to a degree unheard of with open mating.  The result
> was the New World  Carnolians that continue today.
>
> With all due respect to Sue, Marla, Gary and others any selective
> breeding should help the strain.  I believe all the *bad* qualitys could
> easily be bred out.  Wouldn't you agree?  I wonder what kind of super
> bee my mongrel Italians might would become with Sue, Marla and Garys
> guidence?  Dr. Kerr saw possiblities for the Italians!  Dr. Kerr remains
> one of the best bee breeders and after all are not all of us entitled to
> one mistake?
>
>  Today, Carnolians strains are the most prevalent used in the Northeast,
> and  perhaps in all states with similar climates as well as in Canada.
>
> I don't believe Carnolians are the most popular strain with commercial
> beekeepers but they may be in the Northeast.
>
>   As a result, if moderate amounts of food are left, hives are likely to
>  over-winter in fine condition.
>
> Thats what the Carnolian lovers say. I find the methods of checking one
> hives use of winter stores to another hard to pin point. As is why when
> several hives which are treated exactly alike, there is always one which
> out preforms the others.  The only selction many queen breeders make for
> Italians is to raise queens from said hive if all other traits are
> average or above average.
>
>  I dislike making flat statements, but am tempted to say that it would
> be a waste of effort to try to over-winter Italians in Alaska.
>
> Any beekeepers wintering Italians in Alaska on the list wanting to
> comment?
>
> Sincerely,
> Bob Harrison
> Ps I also dislike making flat statements,but am tempted to say Italian
> queens are the easiest to find with their yellow color.