This brings up an interesting point. I have always wondered how someone with no musical knowledge or 'education' can listen to a large structure of say the first movement of Brahms first piano concerto (24 minutes or something?) or the first movement of Mahler 3 without getting completely lost. I am sure if my music teacher had not explained sonata form to me it would have been a big barrier to my CM appreciation. Having said that however, the piece which got me into CM was Mozart's Clarinet Concerto. Didn't really understand what all the fuss about the 2nd movement was (though I do now) and always thought the 3rd was flippant (though I don't now), but I could hum from beginning to end the first movement (and the cadenza!) and form was never an issue, and it shouldn't be if the piece makes sense structurally. Of course, knowing 'what' sonata form is and actually being able to pick out the elements while you are listening to it are very different things. Probably took me a year and a half before I really knew how sonata form worked. My education has also taught me to listen to things better. Some people have the ability to hear a piece of 4 part harmony and just write it down but just being able to hear a bass line was difficult enough for me. I think I solved that by listening to the LH of the Goldberg Variations a couple of times. Only experience can really teach you to 'appreciate' though. Hours upon hours of listening to things that you don't understand until it clicks - I don't think I really get the nuances of ANY CM piece until I have listened to it 3 or so times. That is the difficulty and the reward that comes from listening to CM. Sorry, this seems to have turned into one of those 'stream of conciousness' emails. David Stewart [log in to unmask]