Another couple of hints that perhaps the official numbers are low are the number of packages and the number of queens sold each year. Both of those numbers seem too big for only 2.8 million total hives. Not everyone replaces losses by buying a new package with a new queen. Dick, great question! I think the numbers are pretty good though, and heres why. I have better records than just about anyone on the number of packages sold a year, and where they go. They match up pretty darn close with losses that are reported also. Package numbers being around 25% of the total. If you figure nucs and swarms that comes pretty close to the 30-35% average winter losses. Rough math but I was surprised at how close it came out. I don't think the swarm hunters and that are a huge portion. But maybe another 10% or so??? Charles *********************************************** The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to: http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html