> Not that I'm not suspicious about neonics. The evidence for effects on > bumble bees at low levels seems to be more compelling. Or am I wrong there? > No you are not. That caused me concern when I first read about Imid and its use in green houses. From all I see, the difference is in seed treatment compared to drench, soil injected or spray which are more likely for bumblebees (and honeybees on crops other than corn and canola) to encounter. Drench is used in greenhouses so pollinators (bumblebees) in green houses are subject to much greater concentrations in nectar and pollen than honeybees on canola.. Also classic is tree treatments where drenching is the preferred method. There are records of dead bumblebees around such treated trees. But it is not just the neonics that cause such problems, as shown in France and fipronil, which is much more toxic to bees. Most insecticides applied by drench act like systemics, even though the manufacturer says they are not (see fipronil). I had an interesting time reading about drench application compared to seed treatments. The obvious result is, that because there is more pesticide used in drench, there is a greater kill than seed treatments. So one other reason for bees doing well on canola is there just is not that much pesticide getting to the pests as well as the bee. There is enough to control the pest, but not over-kill it, compared to drench or soil injected. My bet is, that if the neonics were drench applied, there would be a problem in Canola. Stan's experience mirrors that- he had problems with Imid until the local farmers shifted to seed treatments.That is backed up in US studies that looked at drench and squash, where much greater amounts of pesticides were found in pollen and nectar than seed treatments. Fipronil did a great job on the bees in France- and it now on the EU list of "let's ban another one", but in this case, they are right. It does kill bees. Will be interesting to see if it makes it, since it is used on golf courses, which have a much stronger lobbing group than farmers. However, the stuff waiting in the wings will not improve the situation. Bill Truesdell Bath, Maine *********************************************** The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to: http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html