Pete said: While no effects from imidacloprid were seen, significant effects were seen from inadequate control of varroa mites, supporting my contention that beekeepers are seeking to blame in-hive conditions on externalities beyond their reach. In other words, they want to cite somebody else for causing the colony decline that they have failed to prevent. If the above is true then: I have asked many times for the actual number of hives during the period of the CCD survey which were examined and had all the symptoms defined as CCD. Silence from those with the figures. If you apply the above ( Pete hypothesis) to the hives reported (and not checked) from the nationwide CCD survey exactly what level was the problem? 1 or 2% In one area I checked (hundreds of hives) I saw none of the *documented symptoms* yet the hives were on the survey as being CCD. Canada says they did not see CCD (as defined by the symptoms) The state was notified but no entomologist was ever sent. As I checked few areas were documented by actual checking. In my opinion the CCD team does not want to look back to what happened. The pathogen as cause has basically been dropped. Varroa loss is very familiar to most beekeepers. I have no problem telling if a hive collapsed from varroa load. Maybe researchers can't most of the time so they should contact a commercial beekeeper to tell. The hives in Dr. Lu study DID NOT collapse from high varroa load when examined by knowledgeable beekeepers. Some of those first Bayer studies were very flawed in beekeepers minds. Still many defended their studies. A new autism study out defined problems which could contribute to autism in pregnant women. Right away another doctor came out saying the study was flawed. I do not believe the question has been answered and expect new studies on the neonics to be ran. new claims new studies are flawed. (usually by the same people) bob *********************************************** The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to: http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html Guidelines for posting to BEE-L can be found at: http://honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm