> I should take this back, and rephrase as a question! Do others find that > there are more mite problems in larger apiaries? Only applies to those using "treatment free". Varroa control for those commercial beekeepers using treatments (as needed) has not changed since the start. The math concerning varroa has not changed. What has changed is a percent of smaller beekeepers are claiming success now treatment free. Dr. Shiminuki said we should have a bee which would survive varroa without treatments in commercial operations in 20 years. Has not happened yet. I was asked to research the possibility of reduced varroa control *years ago* by large commercial beekeepers. (and documented in the archives) Completed five years later. My first step was to follow the lead of Dr. Shiminuki ( now retired head of the USDA Beltsville Lab) and look into the Russian bee and various survivor queen programs. Consult with Baton Rouge (Dr. Harbo & Harris) on their survivor queen program. Before SMR. I devoted at least 100 hives a year to the program (treatment free and headed by Russian program queens, survivor queens and Purvis Brothers survivor queens) I found Dann Purvis and headed to his home in a remote area of Georgia , stayed in a motel for days , was taught instrumental insemination (II) and helped with his research. I brought back to Missouri many II survivor queens.(Purvis Blue line & gold line) Dann Purvis learned II from Sue Cobey and has helped her teach classes. The Purvis apiary lab was better equipped than commercial beekeeper labs I have ever been at. Dann started working to building a queen operation which his four sons could take over and run. Sadly the boys have all left and went into other occupations, However Dann and his wife relocated to rural Tennessee on acreage but Dann still has his Gold line up and running with no treatments. Dann still sells queens but they cost about twice the price of *cheap* production queens. Even those will not pay for his years of hard work working on a bee which will survive treatment free long term. Dann and I talked last month and have remained good friends. When the subject of bee breeding comes up I am his pupil. Dee Lusby is the only beekeeper *I know of* with a large number of hives completely treatment free. Her success can not be explained away by simply saying her bees are Africanized (AHB). Her success can not be explained away by small cell alone. Commercial beekeepers ran experiments which were *never made public*. Experiments run in Texas using all AHB colonies did not produce bees varroa tolerant. Experiments run in Florida using commercial production bees on small cell did not produce mite free hives. My personal hypothesis based on my hundreds of hives headed by Russian & various survivor queens is they can survive fine for several years when not used in commercial migratory conditions. Some survive by either keeping small clusters or shutting down queen rearing many times a year. Certain USDA researchers have put forward the hypothesis that the failure of the raising varroa tolerant bees by the survivor hypothesis by Harris & Harbo ( before the SMR & hygienic success) would have been a success today if the Russian import bee was around to incorporate into the process. Both Dann Purvis and myself used the Russian first import but kept separate from the Italian line. many others (like Kirk Webster for example *with respect* ) incorporated the Russian line in and claimed a survivor bee was found. I only say the above to point out that the Purvis Gold line does not contain Russian genetics and the Dee Lusby survivor line also does not contain purposely added Russian genetics. Purvis spoke with Baton Rouge at the start and *in my opinion* came up with the bee they quit on after six years of research. For those *new* to the list you can research the archives and learn about my survivor experiments or possibly locate my Russian article in Bee Culture of my Purvis Brothers Apiaries article in the American Bee Journal. My thoughts on the Russian bee has not changed. They are not the bee I would want *today* in a commercial migratory operation but the bee I *would* want to start with if working towards going treatment free. I really liked the Purvis Gold line bees but once I made the decision to continue on the IPM path with my bees I felt little need to persue "treatment free". I am running bees from several sources this year and none are varroa tolerant and my bees look great. *If* I see a problem I treat. I do wish the "treatment free" people success and consider their research important. I will never forget the temperament of the first *blue* line of Russian bees I worked in the high mountain country of Georgia. Dann and I did not take the time for bee suits when we would run out to get drones for semen or get virgin queens from the queen bank. Those bees were "hot" to work. I thought their temperament would change once established in Missouri but the bees stayed testy. The last Russian/Russian queens Herbert Tubbs (Russian queen breeder) sent me were very gentle but still had the Russian qualities of queens stopping laying many times and slow to respond to my efforts of stimulation as the first Russian bees I worked with. However vary varroa tolerant and as I reported years ago I saw almost no virus issues despite the high varroa loads the bees seemed able to tolerate. Personal conversation with "Shim" in one of his presentations years ago "Shim" said one of the factors which influenced his decision to import the Russian line was based on the lack of PMS (virus issues) in the Russian hives despite mite loads when the USDA team was in Russia checking Russian hives. Also based on research on bees able to survive varroa without problems as long as free of virus issues done in the U.K. (Ball & Carrick). I learned that Russian crosses quickly lost mite tolerance & virus issues started .(personal experience) The Russian program was a brilliant idea of the USDA researcher I have often said was *in my opinion* the most knowledgeable USDA researcher to head the USDA-ARS in over fifty years of my beekeeping involvement. I noticed in my last American Beekeeping Federation newsletter Dr. Shiminuki donated money for the preservation of honey bees fund. I would love to hear his thoughts on the subject. If reading the archives one I might observe Dr. Shiminuki (Shim) and I did not agree on every subject but we did agree on most beekeeping subjects. Dann Purvis and I did not agree on every beekeeping subject. However in my opinion both these people have helped greatly with their efforts to find the varroa tolerant bee we have looked for for decades! bob *********************************************** The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to: http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html Guidelines for posting to BEE-L can be found at: http://honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm