>This means that if there is a good chance on a stable host-parasite couple >(tolerant bees, less virulent mites/virusses...I put my money on the last >one first) it will be in an isolated area that has a relatively low density >of colonies. Places like islands with primitive beekeepers or like Arnold >forest. Varroa increase is simple math and has been since the start. When the bees raise vast amounts of brood the bees raise varroa mites. I have purchased hundreds of so called varroa tolerant queens. Varroa tolerant has always been queens which shut down brood rearing at times for various reasons and most are hygienic which reduces varroa population ( and bee population). The "Live and Let die ' method failed to produce a line of varroa tolerant bees by Harbo & Harris (Baton Rouge Bee Lab) so the lab observed what they named as SMR. We purchased SMR breeder queens and what a waste! Half the brood cells were empty! Later it was learned SMR was simply hygienic behavior. My point is a bee as hygienic as those will not work in a commercial operation because of all the pulling of brood the hive never becomes strong.( but the bees are varroa tolerant!) The only true test of varroa tolerance *in my opinion* is by adding varroa pressure. Our experience has been one in fifty hives can handle added varroa pressure ( raising varroa loads in hives by artificial means) and when we tried to raise from those queens the offspring rarely displayed serious varroa tolerance. I encourage hobby beekeepers and researchers to keep searching for the truly varroa tolerant bee! My advice to those making a living from beekeeping is to constantly monitor varroa levels *before* & *after* treatments. Alternate treatments and work the advertised varroa tolerant and hygienic bees for sale into your operation . Or You can do as I do which is run the most prolific and honey producing bee you can find (forget about varroa tolerant and not really concerned about hygienic) and control varroa and nosema. As I said the first week I came on BEE-L:( in the 1990's)) When a truly varroa tolerant bee , prolific and record honey producing is found I will buy queens and change over. I have tested many queens (many with claims attached) over the last couple decades and none have been the bee I am looking for. I honestly believe the U.S. bees today with all their pest and disease issues are not half the bees we ran before mites and other issues. Every beekeeper which kept bees for the decade before mites (Pre mid 1980's) I have spoke with agrees with me. Varroa math has been widely published. One failed varroa control and the next springs math changes. Elimination of varroa from hives has been shown to be impossible. Hobby beekeepers which rarely feed bees do not see the varroa increase we see in commercial hives. Comparing hives not manipulated to hives moved from one pollination to another and feed gallons of syrup with patties is like comparing apples to oranges. The varroa math is different. Fact: commercial hives are usually either on a pollination or honey flow OR being fed. If not fed then the bees do what we call "going backwards".( queens shut down laying) A super strong hive *sitting* needs a half gallon of feed a week to maintain strength between pollination and a honey flow. I hope the bee the commercial beekeeper is looking for is found (and hopefully before long!) but I am not holding my breath! bob *********************************************** The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned LISTSERV(R) list management software. For more information, go to: http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html Guidelines for posting to BEE-L can be found at: http://honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm