It's always stimulating to exercise our cultural memories of who wrote what when and how many. Many have noticed the relationship between music and mathematics, and many of us on the list are collectors and catalogers, which surely must be related to the same impulse: that which possessed the Count of Sesame Street. So, why not expand the discussion to the Counting of works in general? It's always interested me how the First of anything is always a barrier. Brahms is the most famous for delaying his First symphony while writing others like the Op. 25 quartet or the Serenade #1. Less well known but equally interesting is Chris Rouse writing "Symphony No. 2" as part of his application to Oberlin without a No. 1 to precede it. This, of course, was a student work, not the REAL Symphony #2, but this reminds us of the Bruckner pre-symphonies 0 and 00. Then there are the professional catalogers hoping they can get their countable systematics appended to the works of others. And there are those composers, like Hindemith, refusing to count their symphonies--quick, how many DID he write? Then there are the Definers: how can you "count" something unless you're sure it's in the correct category? Is the Domestic Symphony of Strauss REALLY a symphony? Are symphonic poems symphonies? Then there are the strange numbering systems of the avant garde. I hope experts out there can provide interesting examples. I've seen decimals used, although Roman numerals seem to be more common. Somehow, putting a number on something gives it more gravitas, at least I think so. Or does it diminish?? Comments? Jeff Dunn [log in to unmask] Alameda, CA