Dee, Thanks for information on your bees! Others may not think you have shared a lot but to me you have. I understand what you are saying. I have few comments but do have a few. > Also propolis we see as good, while others see as bad. Only in the last few years have beekeepers stopped criticizing my operation for not keeping free of propolis. When I first started beekeeping I was told by *all but* my ninety plus year old mentor to keep the propolis out of the hive! Lines which used lots of propolis should be avoided other beekeeper said! I followed the majority of advice for years but as fast I removed the propolis the bees would replace. Then I started doing experiments. I found hives with the normal amounts of propolis seemed to do better. Then I learned most bees will use propolis up to a certain amount and then stop. I realized that especially some bees are determined to keep what most beekeepers believe is too much propolis. To sum things up I let the bees keep the amount of proplis they feel they need as long as I can manipulate the hive parts. I think most beekeepers are turned off by propolis. Gets on fingers, bee trucks and is hard to remove and remove for their own reasons. My partner (which reads the list but never posts) has a thing about propolis and spends hours (if not weeks a year) in his battle to remove porpolis from the hive. You do! >Another good is that they have been acclimatized by us to accommodate our area An important point. Also one I rarely talk about but comes out often in my testing. Queens of lines from breeders in the south do not winter as well in my area more often than not. I believe its because they are not selected for wintering. However I believe if a line of bees which came from the south were brought into a northern area and selected for for a few years for wintering they would do fine. Most beekeepers do not look close at winter deadouts except to look for disease. High loss (with everything else being right) can point to queens which winter poorly that you bought in the south which have never been selected for wintering. The beekeeper should always ask the person he buys queens from what they consider as important in a breeder queen. >But you are certainly accurate to state that the negative traits can be overcome by management practices, but I would add here.....to fit ones's area. I agree. Bees do quite well in most cases without help but to make a living from bees you need at times to help them along. Sometimes a little adjustment can make a super of difference in a honey flow or help a hive make it through a tough winter. For those following along I might add about management. Only adjust a hive when you know what you are trying to accomplish. Needless arranging can cost production and survival. Forget the books and look at your bees. Know what a normal brood nest looks like! If you know normal then you will recognise abnormal! Example for Missouri: If you see in fall a brood nest which is spreading out to a point the nest could split in winter rearrange back into a compact unit for winter. Same as you would a tree growing in two directions in an orchard. If you don't correct the growth early in life your beautiful fruit tree will split in two later on. In the orchard the tree will grow until it splits in two. In the bee hive in winter if the brood nest is not compact the nest will split and become two small nests. In Missouri these will die in long periods of cold weather. Dee deals with desert and I deal with winter. My bees might not work for her and hers for me. I gave a couple examples of winter management. I am sure Dee could give many examples of what they look for in hives in the desert to survive the long period between rains. Bob -- Visit www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l for rules, FAQ and other info ---