Bill Pirkle wrote, in part re Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto, 2nd mov: >Who know whose right about this. But I used the word "a struggle" for >three reasons 1) the contrast between the two themes. One, the 1st, is >so incredibly powerful in its nature - almost vicious, and the 2nd so >incredibly gentle. 2) the interplay between the two - the 1st, the 2nd, >the 1st again, the 2nd again, then part of the 1st, then part of the 2nd, >ect (this even happens at the end of the piece 3) the victory - after the >initial struggle and starting at measure 31, the piano part dominates the >piece for the next 34 measures(almost 1/2 the piece) to the end as if it >won something. In 3) above don't you mean measure 35&ff or -- better -- measure 47 &ff?? I'll not quibble. Ain't worth it and I think we are closer in though than it may appear. My principal objection is to those who feel compelled to attach a program to this music -- or to those who feel that such a ad hoc program is delivered to them unbidden. I rather imagine that Beethoven (in his marvelous and unique way) had in mind a "struggle" between a strong (ff) 1st theme and a weaker (pp) 2nd theme. A masculine vs. feminine theme. (oops! there I go upsetting the feminist again! Too bad.) His joy (I imagine to myself) was in playing these two ideas off against each other with, of course, the weaker theme winning. He may also have intentionally placed a further limitation on himself -- write this movement with only a piano, 1st and 2nd violins, violas, cellos and basses, nothing more. And even then, the 1st and 2nd violins are playing in unison most - if not all - the time. That was -- I like to think -- the challenge he set himself -- quite consciously and with malice aforethought! And he accomplished his self-assigned task beautifully. No female taming a male; no beauty seducing her beast; no "good" conquering "evil"!!! Beethoven was a musician, not a philosopher, after all. Music doesn't have to "mean" anything. Dave Pitzer