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BEE-L  July 2008, Week 4

BEE-L July 2008, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Neonicotinoids, science and CCD

From:

Bob Harrison <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 25 Jul 2008 19:44:40 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (161 lines)

> I disagree, since it seems to becoming clear that it is a pathogen of some
> sort.

Then why does not the CCD team say so?

My problem is with those who insist, as the article whose
> headline said, that it has been solved and its name is Bayer.

I have a problem with those articles also.

 CCD is a myth at present. Mostly smoke with little actual fire!

 Maybe just a common bee die off like Joe Waggle  posted.

As good a hypothesis as is around.

Nosema ceranae is real and is wreaking havoc

the systemic and other pesticides are causing problems.

 I have, however, a very big problem with
> emotional responses against chemicals where there is no science.

The worlds beeks are mainly upset with three  of the neonicotinoids  and
temik.

There is research showing bee kills related to all these. The grower using
these products worries about his interests. I worry about bee kills. Lines
are drawn in the sand.


> All we need to do is look at organic beekeepers who suffer CCD.

Many different things can cause the symptoms described as CCD.  If you go
back and look at the work of Wilson and Rothenbuler on "disappearing
disease" the final answer which both came up was the problem was genetic in
origin.

GENETIC

pathogens and pesticides were blamed back then along with taken up by
aliens

The CCD team to my knowledge has not looked very deeply into a genetic
problem causing the die off ( I like the word die off better than CCD mainly
because all CCD (the word) represents is a certain set of symptoms WITH four
(at least!) possible causes .)

I will say that none of the beeks which keep Australian queen headed hives
in the U.S. have said they have  had any CCD problems. They have had some
nosema ceranae issues. The largest runs 13,000 and another has 6500. Both
use Australian/Australian breeder queens.

I do not know of any of the beeks which keep Russian/Russian bees with CCD
type problems. Bees leaving the hives etc.

I have seen absolutely no CCD type symptoms in my Russian/Russian or
Australian/Australian hives. I have in hives headed by queens from U.S.
queen producers.

I have many contacts and I have not had a single beek running
Australian/Australia or Russian' Russian queens having problems. Could it be
the genetics are better? Could it be our U.S. lines which have been mixed
since the border was closed in the 20's has a problem? I don't know but I
sure have noticed those bees do not seem to be having their bees leave the
hive.

The final word from the USDA_ARS on "disappearing disease" was that it was
not caused by a pathogen but was a genetic problem. Which would explain why
organic and large migratory beeks are seeing problems. Jerry B. uses the
explanation that an organic beek had hives die after he went into alfalfa
pollination with a migratory beek. I expect the loss was from nosema ceranae
rather than some unknown pathogen.

The CCD team has NOT found a new pathogen and they have searched!

Nothing new folks!

CCD sweeps
> through an apiary, from one group of colonies to another until the whole
> apiary is in collapse.

Not really. However nosema ceranae does! Nosema ceranae is a big problem for
many including myself. Thanks to Eric Mussen , Shad & Jerry Sullivan & randy
Oliver and their advice I nipped my nosema ceranae issues in the bid with
only a loss of production but not hives.

I was ready to depopulate and use acetic acid till I spoke with the above
friends.


> do not see a "little bit of CCD" which you would see with a sub lethal
> dose of pesticide.

 The number one symptom of CCD

1. older field bees are missing from the hive. Classic case of bees dying in
the field or disorientated and can not find the way home.

The best book on the subject and the book I refer to the most :
Pollinator Protection
A bee & Pesticide handbook
by Johansen & Mayer.

The book describes 1. above with many pesticide kills. In the case of Penn
cap M you never find the bees!

>
> I was going to write a short essay on the scientific method and single
> data points, but decided that it was not worth the bother.

I wonder why I bother with BEE-L. Really has little to do with the fight we
commercial beeks are in to survive. Allen Dick walked away.

I should quit beekeeping and go into an easier way to make a living like
extreme martial arts.

 the data point that is being used to show that corn and
> CCD are related is not a very good one, based on all the other variables
> at work.

CCD type symptoms starting at the exact time the corn has pollen  does not
turn on a light bulb?

> Truth is, if there were a pesticide smoking gun, that would have been
> obvious from the beginning.

If only we could find the missing bees to test. A preacher told me the
missing bees were the "bee rapture" and he was going next.  As good a
hypothesis as the rest.

>A pathogen is a different story, especially a new one.

The bottom line on a new pathogen. None has been found and plenty of people
have looked! Using the best equipment available! No cigar! No new pathogen!
No smoking pathogen gun!

Although the USDA-ARS does not agree

. Spain researchers which have been researching nosema ceranae for six years
say nosema ceranae is the cause of CCD. Period! Randy Oliver is closer to
Spain researchers than I am and maybe he will comment or maybe he won't but
he knows Spain researchers believe the current die off is mostly caused by
U.S. beeks not knowing a killer was in our hives until hives started
crashing. Control by feeding fumidil alone did not work in advance cases and
nosema ceranae kills in summer /late fall and makes it hard to winter bees.

When you remove most known bee problems from the CCD deadouts do we really
have a serious problem?  Don't ask me but one has to wonder.

Bottom line.

We can always agree to disagree!

bob

****************************************************
* General Information About BEE-L is available at: *
* http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm   *
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