Thanks Misty!

So ... It is your position that "copper kettles" and "brass kettles" would
essentially follow the same physical form, I.e., thin, hand-hammered or
perhaps machine-hammered metal - probably with some sort of riveted, lug
handle. The only real difference would be the physical composition of the
metal, reddish copper or yellowish brass.

Basically, I should throw out my mental picture of heavy, cast brass
kettles?

Mark

___________________________________

Mark C. Branstner, RPA, AARP
Senior Historical Archaeologist

Illinois State Archaeological Survey
Prairie Research Institute
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
209 Nuclear Physics Lab, MC-571
23 East Stadium Drive
Champaign, IL 61820

Phone: 217.244.0892
Fax: 217.244.7458
Cell: 217.549.6990
[log in to unmask]

"The difference between genius and idiocy? Genius has its limits."  --
Albert Einstein









On 9/9/13 9:53 AM, "Misty Jackson" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Mark,
>
>Copper kettles were made of copper, and brass kettles were made of brass,
>generally speaking. Copper was the common material prior to the 18th c.,
>but given that it was more expensive, zinc was added more commonly in the
>18th c. to reduce the cost, thus making brass. Depending on how much zinc
>you add, the material can still look very copper-like, which was probably
>something traders wanted to retain so their clients would buy it.
>Therefore you can¹t necessarily tell by looking whether you have pure
>copper kettles (reddish) or one that looks that way but had some zinc
>added to make it less expensive. When more zinc is added, then you
>achieve the gold appearance associated with brass. The Montreal merchants
>sometimes specified whether they were selling copper or brass kettles.
>They may not have known themselves whether the copper-looking ones had
>some zinc in them, though the price may have been an indicator.
>
>So there is a shift over time in what to expect in material, rather than
>any shift in lug form being linked with the material. The square ³dog
>eared² French lugs show up in the 17th and 18th c. and aren¹t linked
>specifically with true copper vs. copper-looking vs. brass. Holland
>kettles, if made in England (in the 18th c. England had Dutch tradesmen
>come over to make kettles for them) also have the same issue since the
>lugs tend to be iron but would have experienced the same general shift
>through time in the material used for the body. The bodies of the older
>kettles (16th c., early 17th c.?) from what I¹ve observed are often
>rounded, but I saw a straight sided, flat bottomed one in a museum in The
>Netherlands, too. The designs of the bodies appeared to be linked to time
>period and nationality, rather than materials, too.
>
>You can use a scratch test, though some may frown on this. I tried it on
>a scrap that looked like copper. The scratch reveals golden color if the
>material is actually brass.
>
>I covered this in my dissertaion, specifically in one of the appendices
>under the entry for kettles. It¹s titled :CLASSIFICATIONS BY HISTORICAL
>ARCHAEOLOGISTS AND EIGHTEENTH CENTURY MONTREAL MERCHANTS AND MILITARY
>PERSONNEL IN NEW FRANCE: EMIC AND ETIC APPROACHES. And of course you can
>look at the bib for my sources.
>
>Misty
>
>
>Misty Jackson, Ph.D., RPA
>Arbre Croche Cultural Resources
>214 South Main Street
>Leslie, Michigan 49251
>
>
>On Sep 9, 2013, at 10:08 AM, Branstner, Mark C wrote:
>
>> Ok, question of the day Š People refer in a very off-hand way about
>>copper kettles or brass kettles, and use the terms interchangeably Š
>> 
>> But is there is fact a difference? I understand copper pots made of
>>very thin copper stock with riveted bail lugs that were often
>>secondarily cut-up for tinkling cones, etc.
>> 
>> On the other hand, when I think of brass kettles, I think of something
>>heavier, probably cast, and certainly less portable from a weight
>>perspective.
>> 
>> So Š Are copper kettles different than brass kettles, or are they
>>essentially identical but made different materials, or are some folks
>>just incorrectly describing copper kettles as being made of brass?
>> 
>> Probably all of the above, but I would love to hear some opinions, or
>>handy links.
>> 
>> Thanks in advance,
>> 
>> mark
>> 
>> ___________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> Mark C. Branstner, RPA, AARP
>> 
>> Senior Historical Archaeologist
>> 
>> 
>> Illinois State Archaeological Survey
>> 
>> Prairie Research Institute
>> 
>> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
>> 
>> 209 Nuclear Physics Lab, MC-571
>> 
>> 23 East Stadium Drive
>> 
>> Champaign, IL 61820
>> 
>> 
>> Phone: 217.244.0892
>> 
>> Fax: 217.244.7458
>> 
>> Cell: 217.549.6990
>> 
>> [log in to unmask]
>> 
>> 
>> "The difference between genius and idiocy? Genius has its limits."  --
>>Albert Einstein
>>