Daniel Christlein <[log in to unmask]> writes:

>Or do such patterns occur more frequently in the classical era than I'm
>aware?

Are you actually not meaning "Classical Era" but "Classicist Era"?

>This symphony [Jupiter] never ceases to amaze me.

As they want to try to improve Holsts Planets, how would it sound to put
in Mozarts attempt with astrology on the right place in Holsts opus? And
which would benefit most from it, the Mozart or the Holst?:-)

>To Kenton's defense (don't have him admitted quite yet), I think that
>his intention was probably just to point out that this motif was, in fact,
>a commonplace, and Beethoven could have been familiar with it from any
>of these sources (or any source they all shared in common), without
>necessarily intending to make a direct reference to any particular work
>(like the Jupiter or KV 319) - so I am not sure whether his words really
>support Mike Leghorn's assertion of a deliberate reference by Beethoven to
>the Jupiter.

True, Beethoven studied for Haydn, and Haydn said Beethoven was so lazy
he could have somebody else do his homework, and Beethoven (as a matter
of cause?) claimed he didn't learnd anything from Haydn.  Beethovens style
might owe very much to Haydn, in technique, then for Beethovens romanticism
the expression outgoing from Haydns "Sturm-und-Drang" as I imagine it, but
off the top of my head I can't think of any direct quotations neither from
Haydn nor Mozart.  Actually I think Brahms is better to label the follower
of Mozart (in technique), perhaps even more so then the follower of
Beethoven - "Beethovens 10th symphony" or not.  (I don't know if saying
that Beethoven had more of Haydn in him then Mozart, is actually an
"insult" to Mozart or Haydn, but who am I to tell? ;-)

>If Beethoven made use of them at all, that is - not being a great admirer
>of his, I must admit - blushingly - that my Beethoven discography is
>still very, very spotty, so I am unable to make any judgement of my own.

Mr. Christlein, please, you shouldn't worry.  Beethoven is actually a
modest one, trust me.  As long as you stay away from Beethoven-works like
"Rage over a lost penny", "Zapfenstreich", "Wellingtons Sieg" or "Christus
am Oelberg", you should be able to build out your Beethoven collection with
just an ordinary-sized life-ensurance.:-)

Mats Norrman
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