Frank Wales wrote:

>So people without a larynx can't think, then?

come on, don't be silly! the nerves would try to reach it but couldn't.

>So those without a language can't think?

like who??? see above! the reaearch measured the connection by putting
sensors at the larynx and found a slight vibration whenever the test
persons were thinking. I learned about this at a linguistics seminar
way back in the 70 ie before the web.

>'ideas' are distinct from, and don't depend on, 'thoughts'?

yes! an idea may be something like an image that comes to you but to
hold on to it or to communicate it you must translate it to actual
language; which can be hard or even impossible.  an idea could be the
image of a shape and yes, I think that is completetly different from
my concept of thought. (thoughts without ideas are a different matter:
they're not worth being called thoughts but they seem to fill all
available space in the media ;-)
But you're right: it all happens in the brain, so it is all the same..

>So, our thoughts are limited by language, except when they're not.

what I meant was: It takes a special effort and
probably a special mind to *transcend* the limitations languages impose.
(Not being a natural speaker I wonder just what the difference between
constraint and limitation would be..? My dictionaries let me down.)
Also, I think that all our laguages today are quite evolved and most
limitations they impose on speakers come from a lack of command rather
than from the actual language. but have you never experienced the relief
of learning new words and concepts that gave your thoughts new and
expanded capabilities? I remember, also decades ago, learning the
vocabulary of game theory, eg win-win, lose-lose etc.. these
concepts openend my mind to new thoughts, where before at best there
was a hunch that somehow something was missing.

And reconsidering what I wrote in my 1st post, I'd say, that without
doubt we all know that at least sometimes music could speak to us, so
it must be a language in some sense. Not very elaborate, maybe, but
sometimes it clearly says: 'DANCE' or 'REJOICE' or even 'Try to work
this out!' or 'Catch Me if you can!'..  So music can 'speak' to our
bodies, our pattern matching minds but also to our 'hearts', ie our
emotions.

peace
:):):)  Thomas    mailto:[log in to unmask]