Tony Duggan <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Mats Norrman wrote:
>
>>Is my brain not in order, or is it possible I hear what I think I hear: A
>>touch of oriental tunes in Mahler 4? (I don't hear much orientalism in "das
>>Lied von der Erde").  Could anyone verify or reject Mahler took interest in
>>orientalism at the time for his 4th symphony?
>
>No, any interest was later at the time of Das Lied Von Der Erde.
>You really must read Donald Mitchell's Volume III "Songs and Symphonies of
>Life and Death" where the case for the "orientalism" in DLVDE is argued in
>huge depth, far too complex to really go into here in anything but salient
>points. ...
>
>For Mitchell a simple "chinoiserie" would be the decoractive use of a
>pentatonic formula which can, he maintains, certainly be found in DLVDE,
>but that it goes much deeper than that. ...

What you write here is very interesting, and the Gods shall know I ill look
for that book, but with "orientalism" I don't specifically mean chinoise,
although I know I led you onto that with my mentioning of "Das Lied von der
Erde".  The passage I mainly am thinking of is that in the fourth movement,
between the sung part in the beginning, the phrase that begins with those
bellhits.  It sound to me not at all far from Ketelbeys Marketplace in his
scetches from Central Asia (Karaganda?).  What do you think of it from this
view?

>If you mean his DG recording, the first movement is very good.  The second
>too.  The third is far too fast and the fourth contains some agogic
>distortions.

I have the privilegie to have his DG recording.  Could it be so that he
made this recording for DG to put it on cassette? Therefore he has speeded
up the second part, so both parts get about equal length and fit well on a
tape? Assuming now that a great conductor sacriface art for money...

I agree the third movement is too fast.  For distortions in the forth I
can't say.  Does those distortions come from the playing or has Bernestein
made changes in the score?

How do you think Bernstein in this symphony compares with Kubeliks 1968?
Kubelik has too a to fast tempo in the third movements second theme (jewish
wedding), but else I think this recording (and most Kubeliks Mahler) comes
close to perfection in everything.  When I form me an opinion of a Mahler
recording I often think something about them in comparative relation to
Kubelik.

>For me, Bernstein in Mahler is too often too "idiosyncratic".  I would also
>add far too personally involved to the extent that his idiosyncrasy and
>involvement can become irritating in a short time and annoying over longer.

I though about this and listened carefully to Bernstein again, and what you
said ended up in my recent review.:)

>For me the best Mahler conductors are the ones that can allow the
>music to speak for itself, allowing you to see the musical wood for the
>interpretative trees, which I find I cannot do for too many great passages
>under Bernstein.

I want to ask you a question concerning this: Do you consider Haitink a
good Mahler conductor? To me his philosophy in much seems to be to let the
music speak for itself.


>Let me conclude by saying that there are recordings where [Bernstein]
>doesn't put a foot wrong.  I love his Seventh and his Third.  Here he
>lets the music speak for itself.

I haven't heard Bernstein in these symphonies.  Would you recommend a poor
young man living on a students budget to invest his last pennies in those?
The third and seventh happen to be the Mahler symphonies I am about to
invest in (implied I don't find something special on Monday when I take a
trip down to our glorious capital Stockholm to hear the pholarmonics play
Bruckner 5 (under Jeffrey Tate).  Is Bernstein what you recommend me to buy
in these symphonies, or are there others I must try first?

Mats Norrman
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