Mats Norman wrote:

>Women didn't have the same property rights as men until with or after the
>Industrial Revolution (it occured at different times in different regions),
>but you assume that this has to do with that men thought women to be
>inferior to men, and that is the opinion I am questioning. ...
>
>You tell me there are plenty of evidence for discriminative opinions
>on women.  Let me ask: How could Margareta be allowed to be Queen of
>Scandinavia in the 14th century if men didn't think women to be able to
>have such poitions? Or Elizabeth I of England, how could she be Queen if
>men didn't accept women? Or Zenobia? Or Cleopatra?

 [more snips. In fairness I should point out that Mr Norman provides
additional counter-examples and arguments, which you may want to read for
yourselves, either in his post or in the archives.  I don't agree with his
conclusions, by and large, but I don't think further debate on this point is
appropriate for this list.]

To which I reply:

I think at this point we are rather off-topic - the issue of whether or
not women have been or are considered inferior to men, although worthy
of discussion, isn't appropriate for this list.  Since we could trade
counter-arguments and counter-examples for a good many posts, I think it
is a point on which we should politely agree to disagree and call it a day.

Mr Norman's post continued as follows in his response to me:

>>And let's not even talk about Wagner. [...]
>
>I am surprised that such a burning defendor of women and their rights as
>you, bark on Wagner.  Borodin and Wagner were the two great fighters for
>women and their rights in history of music.  The women in Wagners operas
>are indeed no whimps, and Wagner was much propagating, both in speech and
>writings for womens rights.  For example, when he died, he was writing on
>a pamphlett demanding womens emancipation."

I wasn't commenting on Wagner's professed attitudes towards women, of which
I know little.  I was commenting on his anti-semitism.  (I do acknowledge
that there is a lot of debate as to whether or not anti-semitism is
directly expressed in Wagner's works; it wasn't and isn't my intention to
open that debate here.)

By the way, another member of the list correctly pointed out to me in a
private email that one might have inferred from my original post that I
viewed "The Merchant of Venice" as being an anti-semitic screed, pure and
simple, and considered Shakespeare to be anti-semitic.  I don't consider
the play a screed at all; I think the play's presentation of Shylock -
while ultimately negative - is much more nuanced than that.  I don't know
if Shakespeare was anti-semitic or not, though I wouldn't be surprised if
he shared in the prevailing opinions of his time.  Apologies for not being
clear at the outset.

Kathleen O'Connell