> > Why do the Australians use covers
> > with the same outside dimensions as the hive bodies, a couple of inches
> > deep, and which do not telescope down on the edges? I've seen that they
> > lay a mat over the frames, and set the lid on top. It typically has
> > ventilation holes, too.Yet it doesn't appear that the lid is fixed or
> > anchored to the hive. Don't they just blow off? Or get knocked off? Do
> > they get all clogged up with comb during a honey flow?
> >
> > (The simple migratory (board) lids used here -by some- usually telescope a
> > tiny bit front and back. This doesn't waste much space on a truck, as the
> > bottom boards also jut out a bit from the hive front.)
> My guess is that the main factors are (1) wind (2) rain and (3)
> migration? Here in NZ, most areas of the country probably have more
> wind than Oz (maybe?). At any rate, as well as a telescoping lid
> (often with quite deep sides) the hives almost always have bloody
> great rocks on top of them! 'Older' hives often have mats (cut
> pieces of sacking, which get utterly matted and propolised to the
> frame tops, requiring a ripping loose each time!)
Perhaps our experience here may interest the list...
Over the years, we've used many different styles, including going over
to the migratory style floors and lids for a while. We tried to
minimize the hive parts because we reckoned that when we added it up,
that we spent 2 man weeks a year just putting inner covers on and
off. So we eliminated them.
We found that migratory lids actually blow off *less*, since the
wind has less to grab, but there are other drawbacks. Specifically,
in wet years, water runs over the side edge of the lid and actually
follows the lid into the hive a ways before dropping down -- often
into the frame feeder. This causes fermentation and other problems
as well as a damp hive. If the hive is tilted back at all and the
floor is watertight (sloppy construction in floors actually pays
off) this adds to problems. Migratory lids are also subject to
warping.
We decide that the difference in space used on modern trucks by
hives with telescoping lids is not important, since weight is
usually the limiting factor. So we went back to telescoping lids.
> Now, there is a 'magic number' for the lid overhang which can make
> it almost impossible for the wind alone to blow the lid off. With
> narrow overhang, the lid can readily get swept off. But make it a
> bit more and the lid must come up from both ends (it can't just be
> lifted from one end or edge. Has to do with the triangle formed by
> the lid internal length and the depth of the overhang.
We have come to the conclusion that what removes lids is not
straight on wind so much as gusts and little twisters that travel
with some winds. Recently, a fellow in Southern Alberta sold me
several hundred beautiful metal-topped telescoping lids for a few
dollars each, telling me he was going over exclusively to a deeper
rim (4"?).
His pilot tests had shown they stayed on in S. Alberta which is
famous for its winds. This spring he reported that he had wound up
chasing some of the new style too, so I guess it didn't solve the
problem either. Back to boulders on top. Some years are more windy or
rainy than others, so several years of tests are needed to see if new
lid designs work really well.
Using plastic sheets under migratory lids sheds water and keeps
ladder comb from being a problem, but the sheets are difficult to
handle if there is a breeze. Sacks are often used and work well, but
they need to be folded and refolded, crease easily, and are
eventually propolised and chewed by the bees. They can also mold
during wintering.
Some fellows here use pieces of carpet -- canvas side down -- and
seem happy with it. I have some reservations. I've seen rolled
roofing used as well. I have doubts about using such materials close
to food.
With migratory lids -- and to a lesser extent telescoping lids, it
is hard to get a good seal on the hive top. Although this is no
problem during most of the season, it can delay buildup in spring due
to drafts and water entry. Bad seals also lead to propolising and
mean more scraping which is costly and a nuisance.
> Biggest difference between NZ and US equipment (not sure about Oz) is
> where the bee space is for the boxes. In NZ, our beespace is below
> the frames in the box. That is, the top of the top bars is only 1mm
> from the top of the box itself.
We have a selection of equipment that is not consistent in this
measurement, making establishing a consistent bee space a problem.
(And frankly, I don't care what Langstroth thought, but my bees don't
respect ee space under lids anyhow).
However, we have found a solution to many of the above problems --
and more, we think.
In conjunction with Eric Abell, we have been building pillows that go
under lids and are used year round. They consist of a layer of
Kodel (polyester batting) enveloped in plasic. (Kodel is very
resilient and does not hold water at all. It comes in 1/2 and 1-1/2
inch (R4)thicknesses).
We have several designs that we are playing with, some using more,
some using less thickness, and some using 6 mil black plastic tubing
heat sealed on the sides, with others using tarpaulin material sewn on
the edges.
Eric made a number this spring and was delighted with the results on
his weaker hives and has extended the concept to as many as he can.
There are, of course advantages and disadvantages to any approach,
and this project is no exception:
On the down side, there is one more piece to make up a hive.
Moreover it is not an item that is easy to tie on a truck :(
Ther is no space on top of the top bars, unless the bees have built
some bumps there, and sticks need to be placed there to allow the bees
to cross over, and to permit access to TM dust if used.
Lids do not get stuck down, and may need rocks.
---------------------------------------------------
On the plus side:
All cracks under the lid are sealed.
Water cannot get in. Outer lids can be leaky without problems.
The lid has about R5 insulation if the insulation is not crushed too
much, (see later comments)
Outer lids come off easily -- if you have kept one side of the
pillow (only) for the down side, and the top of the pillow is not
propolised. Thus, the blanket can be peeled back a bit for quick
inspections or frame feeding without opening the entire cluster to
rain and wind or causing them to fly up in your face.
If the blankets are made big enough, they overhang a bit on the sides
and are pressed by the lid, causing telescoping lids to bind a bit,
thus assisting in holding them on.
Bees are not crushed as much when putting on lids.
Top bars and lids do not need to be scraped, since the wax bumps on
top provide a crawl space. Wax and propolis do not stick well
to plastic, and thus removing lids is less traumatic.
The pillows can also be used under a single brood chamber for nucs, if
an auger hole entrance is provided. This makes for a really cosy hive.
They can also be molded around several frames in a standard box to
house a tiny nuc until it grows.
----------------------------------------------------
And there is a wintering aspect:
Using these pillows, I have been experimenting with having an upper
entrance for wintering right in the front of the telescoping lid.
3/4" X 3/4" wood strips are nailed around the outside of the inner
surface of telescoping lids. A 2" gap is left in the centre at the
front.
The idea of this ledge is that this supports the weight of the lid
(plus rocks, or other hives during moves, etc,) so that the
insulation is not compressed much in the centre. It assures a good
fit at the edges, and allows for placing pollen patties, grease
patties, sticks, etc. on the top bars without having the lid teeter
around.
At the 2" gap, several holes are drilled into the lid to allow for a
winter top entrance. The pillow is pulled back an inch or so to
allow access for the bees. This is part of our attempt to develop a
_one piece_ wintering cover to go over 4 hives on a pallet.
We curently do have a one piece cover, but it requires 4 plywood
covers to press the insulation over the auger holes that are now our
upper entrance. Since the wrap is pressed tight to the hives where
it curves over the front of the lids, no cover piece is required.
Many of the current systems require removing the telescoping lid for
wintering, which is a hassle. Ideally, we should be able to walk
into a yard, throw a blanlet over the whole pallet, secure it and
leave. Any extra pieces are just a nuisance.
I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions on this.
Regards
Allen
W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper VE6CFK
RR#1, Swalwell, Alberta Canada T0M 1Y0
Internet:[log in to unmask] & [log in to unmask]
Honey. Bees, & Art <http://www.internode.net/~allend/>
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