Hello Peter & All,

>I meant "better" in that they are safer for the operators,

Temik was always safe for the operators. Came in bags and was simply
scattered around the ground.
Plenty of bags sitting in warehouses in Florida and is reportedly (although 
banned) still used
at times due to its effectiveness.


>safer for the environment,

Temik was always a hazard to the environment in Florida. Found its way into
ground water, oranges and orange juice. Which was way temik was banned some
years ago on orange. Although the study Brian posted did not show OJ
contamination the main reason is temik has been banned from use on orange
for years. Orange growers ( friends of mine) worked hard to suppress the
temik problem. Some COVER-UPS do work.

>and require far less toxic material to be effective.

We are talking about TEMIK here. You and Medhat want to wonder off into
generalities. Each discussion of a pesticide needs to pertain to said 
pesticide. You can't use a broad brush and lump systemic pesticides in with 
sprayed pesticides.

I have first hand knowledge of temik and have written about temik in the
American Bee Journal and before on BEE-L.I even have a label I tore off a 
temik bag around here someplace.


Temik use has KILLED many a Florida beekeepers hive. Temik was perhaps the
first systemic pesticide or at least the first i ever heard of? When Union 
Carbide had the registration the use was not widespread but when Bayer 
bought the rights the use grew fast.

> I never said it wasn't the best at killing nematodes.

Temik and IMID both work good but unlike the sprays kill by placement in ALL
parts of the plant (including pollen ,nectar & fruit). Comparing a systemic
pesticide to a spray is like comparing apples to oranges in many ways.

>But there are many things to consider when evaluating a poison to be
>introduced into the environment, not just how good it kills.

You use the correct word poison Peter. One big difference between a systemic
pesticide and a spray is sprays put the uninformed applicator at risk and
possibly risk to the environment whereas the systemic *in mine and others
opinion* is a food safety risk as the POISON can end up in the food supply.

Using proper equipment (as a small orchard owner which sprays 
organophosphates) I see little health risk.
I use a suit made in Italy which uses two pesticide filters and a helmet 
with its own air supply. A friend uses a tractor with a cab using pesticide 
filters and its own air supply. HOWEVER the general "dumb---" public buys 
organophosphates at Wal- Mart and usually gets the spray all over their 
bodies from a hose end sprayer and breathes the fumes without a respirator. 
Slow death in my opinion!

> Anyway, you clearly know more about many things, Bob, than any of us.

All the list members have their areas of expertise. As a beekeeper which
does pollination I have to keep up on what growers are using. Systemic
pesticides are a hazard to bees due to the poison being ingested by the bees
in pollen & nectar and can build up in the soil and plant and contaminate
fruit.

Many of us do not want any amount of poison in our food despite some
government official saying the amount will not hurt us! I have seen the dead
hives on the neonicotinoids (as has many of the worlds beekeepers) and do
not buy into their safety around honey bees.

> But it is important to keep an open mind and to be aware of changes in the
> combined knowledge that we all possess.

I always keep an open mind at the start of an investigation. After close to
a decade of research and investigation I have formed an opinion. I never
used the Bayer name when I did the ABJ article on the neonicotinoids. I was
interviewed for the "Vanishing Bees" documentary twice but gave the chemical
companies the benefit of the doubt so I doubt my comments were used.( I have 
not seen the documentary ) In fact
Maryam said later she had thought I would have shared the opinion I give on 
BEE-L.
I have learned quite a bit new on the neonicotinoids since the "Vanishing
Bees" interview and would have done a stronger condemnation of the
neonicotinoids today!

When I did the ABJ article many beekeepers had no opinion on the
neonicotionds. Today most of the worlds beekeepers see the neonicotinoids as
*problematic* for bees( Hello the stuff is in the nectar & pollen!).
 Many groups such as the Sierra Club and the Coalition
against Bayer have come on board.

One point I hope all on the list can agree on is that its far to easy for
chemical companies to bring pesticides to market without proper testing. The
decision the register based ONLY on research provided by the chemical
companies needs changed!

It seems its ok to slow poison Americans and unless people start dying then
little to be concerned about!

Thanks for your post Peter!

Sincerely,
Bob Harrison

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