Hello Dee and All,

 Dee wrote:
> I consider it a good picture series because it has been
> reproduced so much to industry, though not noted as bees
> from Milan Italy in 1873, in current editions of Hive &
> Honey Bee, 1992, page 583.

In the picture on page 583 I see nothing out of the ordinary with the wing
length on the queen and worker. I do see the wings longer on the drone.
One has to be careful you are looking at actual pictures instead of  artists
drawings in old books. The picture in figure 8 on page 583 could easily be a
artist drawing in my opinion. The caption should say *slightly enlarged* or
else those are  some big bees if those are actual size.

An example of an drawing  is in  the book by E.F. Phillips "Bee-Keeping"
copy 1928 page 47 fig. 35. The *drawing *shows the worker bees wings even
with the tip of the abdomen. Also the drone with wings shorter than the
abdomen. We know the bees are drawn as the caption says *slightly enlarged*.

An example of an actual picture of queen, drone and worker is in the 1935
ABC-Xyz  on page 1. The picture has been used in many bee books. The picture
has been taken from the side with the bees in a normal position with the
wings in a normal position. One can clearly see none of the wings are longer
than the body except possibly the drones.

I do not dispute you have got worker bees Dee with wings longer  than the
body. I do have a problem with saying all the bees of old had wings longer
than their bodies if that's what you are leading up to.

As for color when talking to the researcher about genes awhile back he said
they figure around five genes control color. Breeding for color could be
harder than breeding for hygienic behavior which is controlled by only a
couple genes I am told. I respect your view point but color would be low on
my list of things I would be selecting for in a breeder queen.

Unless I was in South Africa and trying to separate the capensis genes from
the scut genes. Color is a big factor in their breeder queen selection they
have told me. Black is capensis and yellow is scut.

 We will have to *agree to disagree * on the color issue. I have got friends
which raise and sell many queens a year and  I have discussed their methods
of choosing breeder queens and all say color is low on their list of  things
they look for in a breeder queen.

I always found color to vary greatly with my Buckfast queens in the years I
used  Buckfast queens.

I tried many of the queens in years gone past which were selected for color.
About 50% did what I wanted and expected. The rest were beautiful to look at
but worthless   in many  ways.

Queen rearing is being taken to new territory by Ohio queen breeders and Dr.
Harbo, Harris and others. We are beginning to understand only now what Dr.
Kerr was talking about 40 years ago (in my opinion I guess I will have to
add for now).

One will not find the answers to today's queen breeding in the old bee books
(in my opinion).
I have to wonder what stage we might be at today in understanding the gene
relationship to breeder queens if Steve Tabor and others had been allowed to
research further instead of stopped by their superiors in the 60's.
Every generation has a researcher which stands out. By finding those few
different thinkers and  not supressing their ideas we can make big gains in
research.
.
My friends which took the Australian beekeeping tour a few years back told
of bees they saw which did not build burr comb, better temperament than in
the U.S. , used very little propolis , prolific and excellent honey
producers but of uneven color. Hmmm!
Dee and others might call those mongrels. I would call those my kind of
bees.
Sincerely,
Bob Harrison