To BEE-L

Somehow quotes from a private message I sent to Jim this morning appeared
in part on this list this afternoon, attributed to an 'Alan' Dick.  Since
portions of what appears to be my original private message to Jim were
snipped, used selectively in a post to BEE-L, and presented as my position,
I think it is only proper that I attach the full text of my original
message to Jim below.

I'm also attaching Jim's comments (posted previously to BEE-L) below that
for completeness, and so that readers can consider -- and compare -- what I
really said about the physical (no mention of psyche) differences that can
and do exist between individual bees.  Readers may wish to consider the
significance of those differences.  I know from long personal experience
that understanding them can mean the difference between success and failure
as a beekeeper.

I hope that these ideas are useful to the list, and I thank Jim for proving
my most difficult point so elegantly.

allen

--- full text of my private message to Jim follows ---

> I have post-mortemed too many bees under a low-power
> microscope to agree with Alan's statement that
> "bees are individuals".  Yes, there is some "individuality",
> but many more are apparently identical, even at higher
> magnification.  (A stereo microscope is a big help here,
> since one can set it up as a comparator, and prepare a
> "slide" with two bees in identical positions for A/B comparisons.

Not too sure what you are disagreeing with, since you go on to recommend
comparing two individuals to prove similarity.

Yes, similarity between hive-mates is obvious, but it that similarity is
too often taken for granted and assumed to be an identity .  The important
point being made is that each bee IS an individual. It may be a member of a
cadre of similar bees, but no matter how apparently similar to another bee
it may be, two bees cannot occupy the same space or time line and have
exactly the same history or experience.  Knowing this and remembering this
is one of the things that distinguishes a master beekeeper from just any
other beekeeper.

Obviously bees from different hives and regions are likely to differ quite
markedly, but within a hive there are also huge differences.  The degree of
difference between two bees in any given hive depends on a number of
factors, including time and date, the season of the year, patriline,
nutrition (and there is evidence that bees favour some larvae over others),
any parasitism that occurs during pupation, any accidents that occur during
the larval or pupal stages, any local pollution of the section of comb
where the egg is laid, etc, etc.

Although -- for many purposes -- the subtle differences are not important,
or even readily detectable, the differences exist.  Sometimes they are not
important, but sometimes they are essential to understanding what is going
on in the hive.

> There is a cheap and easy way to at least see the physiological
> differences between bees without killing them.  Buy a headband
> magnifier like one of the ones one the 2nd row of this web page:

Good idea.  I personally just use the cheap reading glasses that are
available at any drug store for under ten dollars.  Keeping an assortment
of powers on hand permit examining things at various distances and
magnifications.  I like the thin ones that sit on the end of the nose
because they permit both close-up viewing, and also normal functioning.
The user can peer thru them for a close-up or glance over the top for
walking around

allen
http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/



-------  Jim's reply, sent to BEE-L, not to me -------

Alan Dick said:

> ....no matter how apparently similar to another bee it may be, two bees
> cannot occupy the same space or time line...

This seems "obvious", except in certain n-dimensional theories
that are far beyond the scope of a discussion about bees.  :)

> ...and have exactly the same history or experience.

While strictly true, it remains to be shown just how either of the
above would have any impact/influence on a bee's actions.

> Knowing this and remembering this is one of the things that distinguishes
a
> master beekeeper from just any other beekeeper.

Disagree.  A "master beekeeper" would avoid such touchy-freely
statements that presume some sort of mystical insight into the
psyche of bees, and stick to practical statements that can be
proven true or false by experiment or experience.

Here's another way to think about bees.  A single bee is nothing
more than a wind-up toy with good sensory apparatus and an onboard
navigation system.  Put enough of them together, and the net effect
of each bee's reaction to blind stimulus-response "hard-wiring"
is impressive.

But all bees that wander into my honey house when the door is open still
unconditionally seek out the southern floor-to ceiling window, and use the
one-way bee escape, while NONE exit via the same door they entered,
even if it is left open.  Wind-up toys.  Slaves to instinct.


        jim