->Ok Bob, I'll take the bait. It's snowing here and I have some time. :-)

I am not trying to bait you Dennis. You make some statements on your website
based on very little other than opinion.
You seem to indicate the U.S. honey supply was contaminated. I only replied
that the survey and testing done over a three year period does not support
your claim.
There is a very good reason why BEE-L is the number one bee discussion list.
If we see claims made and not supported by fact we comment.
I provided information that U.S. honey is not being contaminated by U.S.
beekeepers. I can however provide documentation honey from China regularly
enters contaminated with the antibiotic chloramphenical.

I made the statement that not treating most times will end up with the
beekeeper seeing dead hives.
We see what I said on this list all the time.

As I said I have no problem with people using FGMO, small cell or any other
method to try and keep bees without chemical treatment or even less than the
normal treatments.
My problem is with you trashing commercial beekeepers and lumping us all in
the same basket.
I worked bees every day last week and all day today. My bees are boiling and
ready to move out and super. Did not happen by accident.

I do not see anything which resembles CCD but I do see bees with mid gut
issues. Bees going off feed are rare now but I did see a couple hives today.
If you have spent as much time in a bee hive over the years as I think you
have then you will agree with me I believe that bees not taking feed is
something new to the last 10 years of beekeeping. Feeders full of dead bees
is new.
Researchers have research which says bees with nosema ceranae (mid gut
issues) are unable to take feed and actually starve when feed is available
and jump into inside feeders in an attempt to get feed.
The fumigillin label explains the issue and tells of a drench to try to
solve the problem.

I believe from my desk chair that nosema ceranae played a big part in your
hive loss. You said your bees quit taking feed.

I have been on the front lines of commercial beekeepers fighting nosema
ceranae issues for a few years. The spores are on the comb, picked up on
flowers and passed from bee to bee. Fumigillin does not work very well to
control the problem. It is true some hives can tolerate high spore counts
( Randy Oliver) but I have observed thousands of cases and once nosema
ceranae gets a hold on a hive untreated most crash. Half (my opinion) might
survive but it takes a long time for the hive to recover.


>During that same timeframe, the commercial guys here, have had three major
>collapses while treating almost continuously. Extensive feeding, requeening
>and the use of replacement packages has been required to keep them going.

I do not see extensive feeding as a problem. Costly but the way to get the
hive to raise brood , help winter and prevent starvation.
requeening has been the path to success. Young queens swarm less and tend to
be superseded less.
replacement packages are not used very much by commercial beekeepers. We
mostly buy brood but package bees has always made sense money wise if you
need boxes filled in a hurry in spring.

Right now if a beekeeper in my area with a four year old queen. Has not fed
this spring was to sit his hive next to my production hives he would be
embarrassed. My hives are crammed full of brood and bees in two boxes. His 
on
maybe four frames of brood.


>My hives were able to more than survive the mites and other historically
>common pests.

What do you credit this ability to?


>But they didn't survive this new virus soup  introduced here by those same
>commercial beekeepers.

You have been gone from the list for awhile. I believe the whole virus issue
is over blown. Control varroa and no virus issues. By the time you *see*
varroa on your bees its too late. I feel less than 5 varroa in a 300 roll is
Ok and a higher amount needs treatment but what do I know as there is no PhD
by my name.

Without *testing* the beekeeper is like the weekend mechanic which keeps
replacing parts until he gets lucky and replaces the part causing the car
problem or gives up and parks the car out in the pasture next to his other
attempts at fixing cars without testing.


>And looking at the loads of empty equipment left in their bee yards, I
>suspect their bees are having a bit of trouble.

Some beekeepers need to find another occupation as you can't fix stupid.
However many beekeepers have went through the whole CCd issue without
problems.

Stupid is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different
result.

>Neither path is more foolish, concerning Allen and my hive loses, than the
>other. Treating or not treating simply has no effect on bee viruses.

Controlling varroa will reduce virus issues and will make PMS go away ( Dr.
Shiminuki ).

best of luck rebuilding your hives  Dennis!

The secret to success today is above or you can return to watching nosema,
mites and virus (PMS) ravage your hives.

bob

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