> I know of many good beeks here in British Columbia that have had outrages
> winter losses this winter and treat.
>

Treat with what?

For me, in my little experiments, I run into the word "treat" often and
always ask "with what". The answer can run the gamut, as we see with all the
different treatments available. So clarity is needed whenever we talk about
treatments. Allen did so in his post (oxalic acid - with which I have had
spotty results). Dennis also said that he finally reverted to treating his
hives and it also was oxalic (if I recall correctly).

Dennis noted that some commercial beekeepers he knows use non registered
pesticides in their hives. Amitraz is registered in Canada but not in the
US, however it is used by commercial beekeepers in the US because it works.
But if they are officially asked, they will not cite Amitraz, so we have no
idea why some commercial operators succeed and others fail.

When I went into the no-treatment world, I found that treatments were
actually being used, but they were "natural" and included all the essential
oils, and formic and oxalic acid. Because they were "natural" the beekeeper
considered themsleves no treatment beekeepers.

Also, for these beekeepers, no treatment includes smoke (tobacco and sumac),
drone comb trap and removal, comb replacement/rotation yearly, and other
hive manipulation. In essence, no treatment usually does not mean what old
time beekeepers would remember, which was "set and forget" for most of the
year. Instead it can be as chemicall demanding as any "chemical" beekeeper
and much more labor intensive than some of us can handle.

Plus, some just flat lie.

If there are "set and forget for most of the year" beekeepers, then I would
like to know what is the race of bee, what are the local conditions, how
close are they to other beekeepers, what is the Varroa load, what losses to
they suffer yearly, how much labor do they expend per colony, and what are
their management practices? Problem is we get near zero info about that,
except from Dennis who I have followed for most of his beekeeping experience
and experiments. I always thought that with Dennis (in Wyoming), it was
probably his bees and he may have had a little AHB mixed in, like Dee. I do
know that my experiments with small cell resulted in the only time in 20+
years I lost all my bees.

So, for those who know no-treatment beekeepers, can we have a bit more
information? Also for those who treat, just what does that entail?

Bill Truesdell
Bath, Maine

             ***********************************************
The BEE-L mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned
LISTSERV(R) list management software.  For more information, go to:
http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html

Guidelines for posting to BEE-L can be found at:
http://honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm