Dear Murray and friends,
Please see below my answers.
Thanks.
Stefan Stangaciu.
>> * "Apistan & Co". are extremely powerful poisons;
>
>This is, I'm afraid, more of the usual OTT stuff regarding
Apistan and
>its cousin Bayvarol. This opens a whole line previously
done to death
>over and over again.
>
>Fluvalinate and Flumethrin, the active ingredients in the
two
>treatments, are synthetic pyrethroids. This family of
insecticides are
>amongst the most benign treatments available. They are man
made
>adaptations of chemicals found in plants of the
chrysanthemum family
>(pyrethrums), and, when correctly administered, place
small, controlled
>dosages into the colony.
>
>They are nowhere near as noxious as formic acid.
I agree that everything depends on the dose. But you
will never convince me, nor any other MD or ND that the
toxicity of the above substances are less or equal with that
of the essential oils.
Can you tell us what is the LD50 for the pyrethroids
mentioned above?
I'll try to get for you the same LD50 but for some
of the essential oils and we'll compare the results, OK?
>> * NEVER, a MD, ND etc. will accept with open and light
"heart" the
>>presence of these poisons in a traditional "pure",
"natural" product;
>
>I agree, yet many people advocate taking propolis
regularly. A UK based
>academic I was talking to fairly recently told me of
research into
>contamination of propolis, and the samples were ones on
retail sale,
>which revealed alarming levels of contaminants, especially
lead which
>was present in such quantities as to be downright
dangerous. Quibbling
>over of honey from Apistan treated colonies, and then
advocating eating
>propolis which is a magnet for environmental contaminants,
seems to me
>inconsistent.
The contamination of propolis and other bee products
is, in part, the fault of beekeepers which use also chemical
methods which you advocate with such a passion...
The fact that in the environment there are other
chemicals (pollutants) should be a strong reason to try
alternative ways to treat the bee diseases, isn't it?
If out there there is already a lot of pollution,
will you start poisoning your body by smoking cigarettes
too?
Most of the actual good companies have found ways to
take out the lead from propolis, but do you know any which
is able to get out of wax, honey etc. your pyrethroids?
>> * the essential oils are NATURAL substances; in
correct amounts they
>>will never hurt somebody, on the contrary, it will help to
get rid of
>>many
>>diseases, or will give just a better respiration.
>
>The natural/synthetic debate is entirely bogus. Many
natural substances
>are more noxious than many of the synthetic ones on offer.
You just have
>to take each treatment on its merits and reach a balanced
judgement.
>Whether the substance has been synthetically produced or
obtained direct
>from nature is not particularly relevant. There are after
all some
>EXTREMELY dangerous 'natural' poisons out there.
Yes, I agree, my friend, with your last statement.
So, why shall we add more in our bee products?!
On the other hand, a chemically, man made substance is
NOT always identical with a natural one!
Have a better look in relative recent chemistry and
biochemistry studies than tell me if you got my point.
Also, the big problem which has given dangerous new
varroa strains resistant to "Apistan et. Co" is that it was
used only a small group of substances...
Believe me my friend, varroa has better biochemical
resources to fight ANY chemical substance, if you will not
respect the severe administration methods with these "one
type" treatment.
To respect ENTIRELY the administration of chemical
treatments is IMPOSSIBLE! It will be always people, even
your beekeeper neighbor, which will NOT treat their hives
perfectly.
I do not know why am I pressing so much in this
direction... You heard already of varroa resistant to
Apistan, so, let's move in other direction.
If "Apistan et. Co" will be not replaced SOON by other
methods, we may have big problems in the future...
>> * if you do not want the essential oils in your
products, as
>>"contaminants", you can do the "aromatherapy" of your bee
colonies, as
>>you do now with your chemical method, AFTER you will
collect your
>>bee products, e.g. late in fall...
>Three years ago we bought 200 hives from the widow of
someone who had
>been using Thymol.
You probably do not know, but try to find out if was
natural thyme oil or just the artificial version?
For exactly what I do not know and could not ask him
>as unfortunately he took the reason with him. The hives
smelt
>differently, and it took two years to get rid of the smell.
The honey
>produced from the hives smelt different, and was in fact
rejected in
>Germany because of the smell and taste. We still catch the
occasional
>whiff of it. I appreciate that when it is your own hive you
may be able
>to put up with this, but try selling the honey on when its
flavor and
>smell have been tainted!
I agree with you here that thyme do not smell so
nice, BUT:
* do you know what was the dose used by that beekeeper?
* do you know if he used it, as I mentioned above, AFTER
he has collected his products?
I mentioned in a previous message to the list that there
are MANY essential oils which has been already used and
seems to be very effective, when applied correctly.
So, if you do not like the thyme smell, you can chose
other essential oils, like pine oil, rosemary, lavender
etc... Again, normally you will use them late in Fall and
combined with several other alternative methods.
>Authorities to whom I have talked warn that essential oils
alone are NOT
>an effective way of dealing with varroa. Their
effectiveness is less
>than current controls and is highly erratic.
Who are these authorities?
Are you sure 100% that they made well their
"home-work"?
Did they really study at least a couple of the
alternative methods I mentioned a couple of hours ago?
Are you sure that they are not receiving personal
advantages (financial, vanity etc.) by promoting the present
obsolete (in my opinion) chemical treatments?
I may be too aggressive here, my friends, but this
varroa problem is extremely important for ALL of us, not
only for the beekeepers, but also for the normal consumers
and more important for the ill people which may have their
last hope in the natural, high quality honey and other bee
products...
Unless you are operating on
>a small scale and can treat every colony in optimum
conditions you
>should be very wary of adopting this strategy. Research is
continuing
>all the time and an effective system may become available
soon.
Yes, it must come very soon!
>> I do not believe that practicing alternative methods
is a "threat"
>>towards the bee "industry"...
>
>Possibly not, but I would not want an 'alternative methods'
user as my
>neighbor. I just would not want the re-invasion problem
from those
>colonies of his/hers which were collapsing because
treatment X or Y did
>not work. Using unproven/uncertain treatments is not a
friendly act to
>those around you.
In Bible it is written that you should first
look into your eyes, to see if they are clean enough, than
to look in the neighbor's ones...
Again, there are many areas in this world
(Italy, Canada etc.), where the "Apistanotherapy" was used
by all beekeepers in a certain area. However, the varroa has
survived...
So, my friend, if you will continue with
perseverance to use ONLY Apistan & alike, you will endanger
your neighbors and will get probably in trouble for that...
>> I believe this is the ..salvation!
>
>Again possibly, but I feel that the bee breeders are those
with whom the
>ultimate salvation lies.
Yes, the bee breeders will give us the best results,
but:
- their answer/methods may come too late...
- I believe that varroa will finally persist to exist in
Nature, with ALL our "clever" anti-varroa methods; even if
it sounds weird for some of you, varroa and other bee
enemies, are necessary in the Nature's balance!
The problem is not to destroy varroa, but to diminish it's
"powers" and "aggresivity", or much better, to increase the
bee colony's resistance towards it. As one of my best
friends told us in a beekeeping club 4 years ago, we must
accept to live with varroa for a long period of time from
now on...
The main problem is that this co-abitation should be
done with minimum risks for our bees and for our clients.
Friendly yours,
Stefan Stangaciu, MD, LAcup.
Constanta, Romania
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www.sci.fi/~apither
www.beesting.com
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