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Martin, thanks for identifying where the phrase came from - if it was  
posted earlier, I apologize...

You make a great point about the transition from  hunter gatherers to  
agriculturalists.  I was only responding to the statements which  
suggested we only learn what we need to learn in order to survive...

Do you think its possible that the counter-intuitive nature of  
evolution arises precisely because of the egocentric aspect of an  
individual point of view?  Again, its likely difficult to reduce these  
questions to simple answers.

Great stuff to chew on.....

On Jul 22, 2010, at 2:49 PM, martin weiss wrote:

> *This message was transferred with a trial version of  
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> ISEN-ASTC-L is a service of the Association of Science-Technology  
> Centers
> Incorporated, a worldwide network of science museums and related  
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>
> On Jul 22, 2010, at 3:23 PM, JEFF wrote:
>
>> ISEN-ASTC-L is a service of the Association of Science-Technology  
>> Centers
>> Incorporated, a worldwide network of science museums and related  
>> institutions.
>> *****************************************************************************
>>
>> It seems to me there a couple of things missing from this discussion:
>>
>> First, with regard to the biological imperative to procreate, there  
>> is an important distinction between the individual and the  
>> collective.  Whether or not I am able to father children is  
>> immaterial to the larger question of can the species continue?  The  
>> same holds true when talking about diseases such as H1N1 or AIDS.   
>> While they affect a larger group, it is still an issue of scale  
>> (it's also anthropomorphic - seen from the pathogen's  
>> persepctive....).  Third, and most important, is to be careful not  
>> to interchange the theory  of evolution with the process of  
>> evolution.
>>
>> On the notion of the assimilation of  knowledge as a function of  
>> some biological imperative - I would argue it is highly unlikely.    
>> While it may be true in the particular - "It will help me to  
>> survive and reproduce if I know x,y,z." - it does nothing to  
>> explain much of what we know, much of what we study.  For instance,  
>> I would argue there was little immediate evolutionary value in  
>> discovering Saturn is surrounded by rings of ice fragments.  What  
>> about the body of knowledge built around the humanities - music and  
>> art, just to name two?  A biological bent does not explain, except  
>> perhaps as a minor byproduct, either the curious mind or the  
>> spiritual mind.
>
> I think there was a lot of "information or knowledge" that was  
> required to move from hunter gathers to farmers and herders with  
> significant impact on a populations survival. The rings of Saturn  
> were probably not important but we can certainly agree (I think)  
> that  other pieces of knowledge were of evolutionary (survival) value.
>>
>> Finally, why is there so much confusion about the basic meaning of  
>> evolution (the confusion between survival of the fittest vs.  
>> survival of the adequate)?  I'm surprised we haven't heard from any  
>> constructivists.  "Survival of the fittest" was perhaps a  
>> convenient short-hand which 'evolved' into a collective certainty.   
>> Perhaps it is because evolution most often occurs on a timescale  
>> that is beyond ordinary comprehension.  Or maybe it has to do with  
>> the egocentric view that is part of most western societies, where  
>> consideration of species is too abstract a leap for the uninitiated  
>> individual.  Regardless, its a complex issue and is not likely due  
>> to any one cause, but rather represents a confluence of the many  
>> ways we interact with and are informed by our environment as we  
>> seek to develop a world view that has personal meaning.
>
> Survival of the fittest  was first used by Spencer after he read On  
> the Origin of the Species and applied it to human society. It was  
> very evocative for the 19 th century society in England given the  
> militaristic nature of the English Empire. We know now that the  
> concept of fittest does not fit with what we know of evolution. Time  
> scales are a great problem (as are astronomical distances) but I am  
> not sure that species is such a problem.  Certainly egocentric views  
> do shift an understanding of evolution as does religion (and a host  
> of other -isms). Another major problem is evolution (the process not  
> the theory) is counter intuitive running counter to any logical  
> assumptions of the natural world.
>
> Martin
>>
>> Jeff Courtman
>> Museumscapes
>>
>
>
> __________________
> __________________
> Martin Weiss, PhD
> Science Interpretation Consultant
> mweiss at nyscience dot org
>
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