Eric Brown wrote:
>That said, I think it's misguided to split the organic movement into a
>science-based organic movement and a faith-based organic movement.

Hello Eric and Dennis,

Being in Europe, with little knowledge leaking through on some parts
of your world, I find it strange with this controversy between organic
and non organic producers. The organic movement, here in the Nordic
countries at least, is well established and respected by everyone in
most fields. It's almost like we are talking about different things.
Some of the EU subsidies are targeted on increasing organic
sustainable farming. But it's generally based on scientifically sound
principles. A friend and neighbor beek with 500+ hives is running his
operation organic. Difference is he has to use organic acids instead
of fluvalinate, detergents that break down naturally, only use wax and
sugar from other organic producers, etc. Not use materials or
procedures that damage the environment. In reality not much different
to what I do. So far the main organic organization in each country
sets their own rules, that might not be the same as other countries,
but with time I'm sure it will even out and lead to similar rules
around the globe.

I have little against organic beekeeping, it's the way a small group
of very loud persons are using BEE-L for their own interest I disagree
with. However, I fail to understand the reason behind it...

Dennis wrote:
>But you both sit in judgment, mainly as I ascertain, because you run a few
>hundreds of hives commercially, if you have a typical European pattern.

That shows a lack of knowledge of European beekeeping. You are talking
about what it looked like 10-15 years ago. Yes we generally have a
more labour intense way of managing the bees. This means better
control of what's happening and thus a better average result than
extensively run hives. With better hive material, more efficient
equipment, we are now also increasing hive numbers. Without loosing
the important control. If you look at what really counts, production
per man hour, I believe that we can well match the American beek under
equal conditions. The main disadvantage so far has been the many
different hive models that made it hard to produce efficient machinery
for all frame sizes. This has changed, Langstroth is now becoming the
std here too. Commercial beekeeping here is from 500 hives upwards.
There are operations of several thousand hives.

>I'd been gone so long that I didn't even know Murray had left. I
thought the informed part of
>the list was the result of what we share with each other.

If you had been here you might have been as frustrated about what was
going on as we were. The list was moving away from being informed, and
about to become a graffiti board for a few. I had the option of
logging off or speak up. I hesitantly choose the latter.

>. So........were's your figures?

If you go back a little in the posts you will find them. I'm not
asking for more than I'm prepared to supply myself.

-- 
Regards

P-O Gustafsson
[log in to unmask]  http://beeman.se

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