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The "random" bit bothers me too. Genetic mutation could be considered random
but natural selection is cumulative and isn't random at all.... pressures of
the environment serve as the force that drives it.
Amanda
***
Amanda Chesworth, Educational Director
Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
www.csicop.org
Inquiring Minds Program
www.inquiringminds.org
Skeptical Inquirer Magazine
www.skepticalinquirer.org
Skeptiseum
www.skeptiseum.org
Skeptic's Toolbox
www.skepticstoolbox.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Jay Stevens" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 10:59 AM
Subject: Re: President Bush and Intelligent Design
> ISEN-ASTC-L is a service of the Association of Science-Technology Centers
> Incorporated, a worldwide network of science museums and related
institutions.
>
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*
>
> > Wagner gets taken out behind the woodshed and thrashed.
>
> Oh boy. Ouch.
>
> Note throughout the posts, there is a focus on "randomness" versus the
> determined/intentional acts of an intelligent designer.
>
> This whole idea of randomness continues to bother me, too.
>
> There's a mechanism involved here; we call it randomness or chance, but
> it isn't the same kind of chance that gets you snake eyes three times
> in a row. Nature didn't Oops! stumble upon a horse. Lucky Nature,
> lucky horse. In this universe, with these physical laws, on this
> planet, with these conditions, a horse is perhaps the logical outcome.
> Perhaps our brains are too little to follow the complex course of
> causation, but calling it "chance," "random" or "accidental" implies to
> non-scientists that humanity is an unwanted abberation in the cosmos.
>
> Last time I brought this up (I mentioned the similarities between the
> prehistoric American savannah fauna and present-day African savannah
> fauna [similar ecologies give rise to similar organisms]), I got
> swooped upon by some biologists, correcting me that evolution is, in
> fact, a "random" process.
> But I hold my ground. "Random" ain't the right choice of wording here.
> Life isn't an "accident" the same way I dropped coffee on my
> colleague's lap. Regardless of whether there are invisible superheroes
> guiding our lives from outer space or not, this Universe has the
> capacity for Life as part of its inherent structure.
>
> Y'know, language shapes perspective.
>
> BTW--podcasts of radio shows produced by WNYC are not "free" as I said
> in a recent, unrelated post. They're "listener-supported." Let's get
> the language right.
>
> __
> JasonJayStevens
> Exhibits Design + Fabrication at the Ann Arbor Hands-On Museum
> [log in to unmask]
> www.aahom.org
>
> On Aug 5, 2005, at 9:51 AM, martin weiss wrote:
>
> > ISEN-ASTC-L is a service of the Association of Science-Technology
> > Centers
> > Incorporated, a worldwide network of science museums and related
> > institutions.
> > ***********************************************************************
> > ******
> >
> > Yes, we've been round on this here and on Museum-l but I think this
> > (from a colleague may offer some cheer.
> >
> > <http://www.corante.com/loom/archives/2005/08/02/
> > a_question_for_the_president.php>http://www.corante.com/loom/archives/
> > 2005/08/02/a_question_for_the_president.php
> >
> > On Carl Zimmer's blog a debate in the Comments section has become
> > quite exciting. There's an ID proponent, Charlie Wagner, who has been
> > making outrageous, illogical claims, and near the very of the page
> > (second comment to last, the long one by Tim Chase), Wagner gets taken
> > out behind the woodshed and thrashed.
> >
> > Martin
> > --
> > Martin Weiss, Ph.D
> > Vice President, Science
> > New York Hall of Science
> > 47-01 111 th Street
> > Corona, New York 11368
> > 718 699 0005 x 356
> >
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