John,
What are you wanting to say? All we see are a bunch of forwarded notes. Do
not hit forward when you want to reply.
At 04:08 PM 12/30/02 -0500, you wrote:
>--Boundary_(ID_MvIN6eQ8hAcL8c/T8zUoCg)
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>
>
>
>"Robert L. Schuyler" wrote:
>
> > Historical Movies etc.
> >
> > I have always been shocked and surprised when Hollywood or TV changes
> > history for no apparent
> > reason. It does not help the movie or TV special, so why change the facts?
> > This is especially
> > surprising when the media makes a religious movie or TV special and there
> > was one not too long
> > ago that had the Old Testament inside out. I even have a dim memory of "The
> > Ten Commandments"
> > in which Moses bounces the holy tablets (first set) off of his brother
> > Aaron's head and the Golden
> > Calf and Aaron (Edgar G. Robinson) fall down a hole (into Hell?). It was a
> > great scene but I think
> > Aaron survived that incident in the original and went on to be important.
> >
> > Truly religious people must go crazy over this sort of thing.
> >
> > The Civil War. I remember several years back when one of the graduate
> > students here at Penn in
> > historical archaeology told Murray Murphey, the Chair of the Department of
> > American Civilization,
> > that he or she was under the impression that Thomas Jefferson was the
> > president of the United
> > States during the Civil War. Murray never recovered from that one. I did
> > point out to Murphey that
> > it could have gone the other way and the student might have been under the
> > impression that
> > FDR (one of Murray's heroes) was president during the Civil Wat. At least
> > they had the right
> > country.
> >
> > Now what to do - go see "Gangs of New York" or read those seven
> > volumes on my Bob: A no-brainer. Do both - for different reasons.
> > library shelf?
> >
> > Bob Schuyler
> >
> > At 10:18 AM 12/30/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> > >Yes, Hollywood is in the entertainment business, and some literary or
> > >artistic license one can live with. But that's no excuse for gross
> > >misrepresentations. So its a matter of what one can, or chooses to, accept
> > >in order to bring a story to a wide audience.
> > >
> > >There has been lots of discussion, over the years, of Hollywood and
> what it
> > >does or doesn't do in professional historical journals like the Journal of
> > >American History. If you're interested in that literature, its easy to
> > >find, so I don't want to go into that again here.
> > >
> > >I have always felt that the best that can be said for a lot of these
> > >"period" or "historcial" films is that they may awaken an interest in
> > >curious or thinking people who will then want to go out and learn more
> > >about whatever the subject is. (I'd suggest seeing the movie first and
> then
> > >going to the literature, rather than vice versa.) If the results of the
> > >testing programs that some of these educational groups are carrying out
> > >with students at some of our top colleges, who can't identify when the
> > >Civil War was fought, for example, are really accurate, then kindling that
> > >interest to want to go deeper may be worthy accomplishment enough.
> > >
> > >Carl Barna
> > >Regional Historian
> > >BLM Colorado State Office
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John White
> > > <[log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask]
> > > U.EDU> cc:
> > > Sent by: Subject: Re: historical
> movies
> > > HISTORICAL
> > > ARCHAEOLOGY
> > > <[log in to unmask]
> > > edu>
> > >
> > >
> > > 12/30/2002
> > > 09:54 AM
> > > Please respond
> > > to HISTORICAL
> > > ARCHAEOLOGY
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Carl Barna wrote:
> > > Hi Chris --
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm glad to see that at least one "historical" archaeologist
> bothered
> > > to
> > > study history in college! ;o) (another topic)
> > >
> > >
> > > The material culture aspects of the film (one can nitpick anything),
> > > and
> > > its GENERAL-OVERALL historical aspects are well done. There are,
> > > however,
> > > gross inaccuracies with many of the historical points, e.g. the
> naval
> > > bombardment, the excessive death tolls, etc. As far as the racial
> > > matters
> > > go, one has to realize that there was no love lost between the Irish
> > > and
> > > the Blacks, ( then or now) as both were oppressed and had to
> make due
> > > with,
> > > or compete with each other for, the most menial types of jobs that
> > > were
> > > available to them. The depiction of NY politics was good.
> > >
> > >
> > > Like "The Patriot" (in spite of the Smithsonian's silly efforts with
> > > that
> > > one), it does give one a reasonably good overview of a particular
> > > subject
> > > or time period, and, for us detail freaks, Hollywood is finally
> > > getting
> > > some of the nuances of period details correct (e.g. one doesn't see
> > > flashless muskets firing anymore). But Hollywood still seems to
> want
> > > to
> > > embellish or distort historical facts with box office-aimed
> fireworks.
> > >
> > >
> > > That's its job! It is called entertainment or diversion. It doesn't
> > > profess to be academic or archaeological. Its worth should be
> > > determined by artists and qualified movie critics not archaeologist
> > > who are more concerned with minutiae than flavor. Personally I
> loved
> > > "Raiders", though the entire thing was Saturday matinee in content.
> > >
> > >
> > > Anyway, enjoy the film for what it does do.
> > >
> > >
> > > Carl Barna
> > > Regional Historian
> > > BLM Colorado State Office
> > >
> > >
> > > chris rohe
> > > <crohe@HOTMAIL To: [log in to unmask]
> > > .COM> cc:
> > > Sent by: Subject: historical
> > > movies
> > > HISTORICAL
> > > ARCHAEOLOGY
> > > <[log in to unmask]
> > > edu>
> > >
> > >
> > > 12/28/2002
> > > 09:49 AM
> > > Please respond
> > > to HISTORICAL
> > > ARCHAEOLOGY
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello everyone, hope all had good holidays. I often hear of
> > > archaeology in
> > > fiction on here but not much on historical focused movies, so I
> would
> > > like
> > > to recommend GANGS OF NEW YORK. It's not one to take the kids too.
> > > It's
> > > full of violence and racial bigotry, but often today we're given
> > > watered
> > > down versions of history thanks to the pc world for fear of guilt or
> > > offending someone. Real life is often offensive.
> > > Anyway I would like to hear some opinions from people who have some
> > > experience of the area and what they thought of the accuracy of the
> > > film or
> > > how it was done. The only stuff I know of the area is from some
> > > History
> > > Channel episodes and a few history classes. The names of the gangs
> > > sounded
> > > right, the draft riots of 1863 as I understand were only quelled by
> > > sending
> > > in federal troops, and the portrayal of the fire and police
> > > departments
> > > being ran by different groups which often battled in the streets for
> > > control
> > > of areas all seemed pretty good.
> > > So, I recommend the movie even though it is DeCaprio it was an
> > > interesting
> > > film.
> > > Happy New Year,
> > > Chris Rohe
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*.
> > >
> > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&D
> I=7474&SU
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smarts
> pamprotection_3mf
> > >
> >
> > Robert L. Schuyler
> > University of Pennsylvania Museum
> > 33rd & Spruce Streets
> > Philadelphia, PA l9l04-6324
> >
> > Tel: (215) 898-6965
> > Fax: (215) 898-0657
> > [log in to unmask]
>
>--Boundary_(ID_MvIN6eQ8hAcL8c/T8zUoCg)
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>
>
>"Robert L. Schuyler" wrote:
>>Historical Movies etc.
>>
>>I have always been shocked and surprised when Hollywood or TV changes
>>history for no apparent
>>reason. It does not help the movie or TV special, so why change the facts?
>>This is especially
>>surprising when the media makes a religious movie or TV special and there
>>was one not too long
>>ago that had the Old Testament inside out. I even have a dim memory of "The
>>Ten Commandments"
>>in which Moses bounces the holy tablets (first set) off of his brother
>>Aaron's head and the Golden
>>Calf and Aaron (Edgar G. Robinson) fall down a hole (into Hell?). It was a
>>great scene but I think
>>Aaron survived that incident in the original and went on to be important.
>>
>>Truly religious people must go crazy over this sort of thing.
>>
>>The Civil War. I remember several years back when one of the graduate
>>students here at Penn in
>>historical archaeology told Murray Murphey, the Chair of the Department of
>>American Civilization,
>>that he or she was under the impression that Thomas Jefferson was the
>>president of the United
>>States during the Civil War. Murray never recovered from that one. I did
>>point out to Murphey that
>>it could have gone the other way and the student might have been under the
>>impression that
>>FDR (one of Murray's heroes) was president during the Civil Wat. At least
>>they had the right
>>country.
>>
>> Now what to do - go see "Gangs of New York" or read those seven
>>volumes on my Bob: A no-brainer. Do both - for different reasons.
>>library shelf?
>>
>> Bob Schuyler
>>
>>At 10:18 AM 12/30/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>> >Yes, Hollywood is in the entertainment business, and some literary or
>> >artistic license one can live with. But that's no excuse for gross
>> >misrepresentations. So its a matter of what one can, or chooses to, accept
>> >in order to bring a story to a wide audience.
>> >
>> >There has been lots of discussion, over the years, of Hollywood and
>> what it
>> >does or doesn't do in professional historical journals like the Journal of
>> >American History. If you're interested in that literature, its easy to
>> >find, so I don't want to go into that again here.
>> >
>> >I have always felt that the best that can be said for a lot of these
>> >"period" or "historcial" films is that they may awaken an interest in
>> >curious or thinking people who will then want to go out and learn more
>> >about whatever the subject is. (I'd suggest seeing the movie first and
>> then
>> >going to the literature, rather than vice versa.) If the results of the
>> >testing programs that some of these educational groups are carrying out
>> >with students at some of our top colleges, who can't identify when the
>> >Civil War was fought, for example, are really accurate, then kindling that
>> >interest to want to go deeper may be worthy accomplishment enough.
>> >
>> >Carl Barna
>> >Regional Historian
>> >BLM Colorado State Office
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > John White
>> > <[log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask]
>> > U.EDU> cc:
>> > Sent by: Subject: Re: historical
>> movies
>> > HISTORICAL
>> > ARCHAEOLOGY
>> > <[log in to unmask]
>> > edu>
>> >
>> >
>> > 12/30/2002
>> > 09:54 AM
>> > Please respond
>> > to HISTORICAL
>> > ARCHAEOLOGY
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Carl Barna wrote:
>> > Hi Chris --
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm glad to see that at least one "historical" archaeologist
>> bothered
>> > to
>> > study history in college! ;o) (another topic)
>> >
>> >
>> > The material culture aspects of the film (one can nitpick anything),
>> > and
>> > its GENERAL-OVERALL historical aspects are well done. There are,
>> > however,
>> > gross inaccuracies with many of the historical points, e.g. the
>> naval
>> > bombardment, the excessive death tolls, etc. As far as the racial
>> > matters
>> > go, one has to realize that there was no love lost between the Irish
>> > and
>> > the Blacks, ( then or now) as both were oppressed and had to make
>> due
>> > with,
>> > or compete with each other for, the most menial types of jobs that
>> > were
>> > available to them. The depiction of NY politics was good.
>> >
>> >
>> > Like "The Patriot" (in spite of the Smithsonian's silly efforts with
>> > that
>> > one), it does give one a reasonably good overview of a particular
>> > subject
>> > or time period, and, for us detail freaks, Hollywood is finally
>> > getting
>> > some of the nuances of period details correct (e.g. one doesn't see
>> > flashless muskets firing anymore). But Hollywood still seems to
>> want
>> > to
>> > embellish or distort historical facts with box office-aimed
>> fireworks.
>> >
>> >
>> > That's its job! It is called entertainment or diversion. It doesn't
>> > profess to be academic or archaeological. Its worth should be
>> > determined by artists and qualified movie critics not archaeologist
>> > who are more concerned with minutiae than flavor. Personally I
>> loved
>> > "Raiders", though the entire thing was Saturday matinee in content.
>> >
>> >
>> > Anyway, enjoy the film for what it does do.
>> >
>> >
>> > Carl Barna
>> > Regional Historian
>> > BLM Colorado State Office
>> >
>> >
>> > chris rohe
>> > <crohe@HOTMAIL To: [log in to unmask]
>> > .COM> cc:
>> > Sent by: Subject: historical
>> > movies
>> > HISTORICAL
>> > ARCHAEOLOGY
>> > <[log in to unmask]
>> > edu>
>> >
>> >
>> > 12/28/2002
>> > 09:49 AM
>> > Please respond
>> > to HISTORICAL
>> > ARCHAEOLOGY
>> >
>> >
>> > Hello everyone, hope all had good holidays. I often hear of
>> > archaeology in
>> > fiction on here but not much on historical focused movies, so I
>> would
>> > like
>> > to recommend GANGS OF NEW YORK. It's not one to take the kids too.
>> > It's
>> > full of violence and racial bigotry, but often today we're given
>> > watered
>> > down versions of history thanks to the pc world for fear of guilt or
>> > offending someone. Real life is often offensive.
>> > Anyway I would like to hear some opinions from people who have some
>> > experience of the area and what they thought of the accuracy of the
>> > film or
>> > how it was done. The only stuff I know of the area is from some
>> > History
>> > Channel episodes and a few history classes. The names of the gangs
>> > sounded
>> > right, the draft riots of 1863 as I understand were only quelled by
>> > sending
>> > in federal troops, and the portrayal of the fire and police
>> > departments
>> > being ran by different groups which often battled in the streets for
>> > control
>> > of areas all seemed pretty good.
>> > So, I recommend the movie even though it is DeCaprio it was an
>> > interesting
>> > film.
>> > Happy New Year,
>> > Chris Rohe
>> >
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*.
>> >
>> ><http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&D
>> I=7474&SU>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartsp
>> amprotection_3mf
>> >
>>
>>Robert L. Schuyler
>>University of Pennsylvania Museum
>>33rd & Spruce Streets
>>Philadelphia, PA l9l04-6324
>>
>>Tel: (215) 898-6965
>>Fax: (215) 898-0657
>>[log in to unmask]
>
>--Boundary_(ID_MvIN6eQ8hAcL8c/T8zUoCg)--
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