Margaret Mikulska wrote (in response to Mike Leghorn):

>Your ears are a poor judge - check the score.  The themes are not
>identical.

I consider my ears to be the definitive judge.

>It's a pity that you allow only your ears, and not your mind, be the judge.
>I call it a myth because it's impossible - beyond a reasonable doubt, which
>is the best one can do outside mathematics - that LvB ever heard or seen
>Bastien, and extremely unlikely that he even knew about its existence.  If
>he didn't know the work, how could he borrow from it?

I use my mind when I LISTEN music.  You can learn so much from LISTENING
to music, even more than from reading books and music scores.  If you
aren't impressed by the striking similarity between the Eroica theme
and the Bastien theme, then I suspect you haven't really LISTENED to the
Bastien overture.  As far as the historical evidence goes, there is no way
that you can say that Beethoven never heard or read the score to Bastien.
Our historical record of Beethoven's life isn't so detailed that we know
all the music he heard or studied.

>People love myths and apocryphal anecdotes probably because most of them
>don't require any intellectual (or musical, if music is involved) effort
>whatsoever to "understand" them.  It's easy to say, after hearing 2-3
>notes from the same chord, that it's a quotation.

It's more than 2-3 notes from the same chord -- it's 8 notes, which
sound the same to me, melodically, and rhythmically (even if the score
is different).  Hearing similarities between two pieces of music involves
some higher intellectual functions, including pattern recognition and
interpretive LISTENING.  It's something that people skilled in the art
of LISTENING are able to do.

>It also takes a tiny bit of intellectual effort to find out if the
>composer in question could have been familiar with the work in question.
>This is, however, beyond many people's ability.  ANd, more importantly,
>willingness.

I wouldn't know where to begin in order to find out if Beethoven had
heard Bastien.  If there is no record of it, it doesn't necessarily mean
he never heard it or studied it.  I fear that LISTENING is beyond many
people's abilities or willingness.  That's the problem with music today
(i.e.  pop, top 40, etc..)!

Mike