Mats Norrman, on my comments to Mike Leghorn:

>>The formal complexity at the 1st movement of the Eroica is related to some
>>specific structural issues of the classic sonata-form scheme.  I don't see
>>what does it has to do with the finale of Mozart's 41, which is mainly a
>>big fugue in quadruple inverted counterpoint.
>
>I am sure Mr. Legghorn can speak for himself but I can't see that Mr.
>Leghorn in any way suggested that Mozarts 41th finale was the MODEL of
>the Eroica 1st movement.

No, he didn't suggested that.  However, I wanted to point that the formal
problems offered by both pieces were quite different, and required quite
different abilities to solve them.  I can't see an objective ground where
such assertion may have base.  If Mr.  Leghorn has more information about
it, he is welcome to expose it for our profit (I say it honestly and
without any sarcasm).  Of course, It's not absolutely necessary to have
an objective ground to state this.  If Mr.  Leghorn *feels* that there's
a connection between both pieces and that Mozart's piece could have
"encouraged" Beethoven to embark his own, well, one may answer "why not?,
who knows?".  However, he didin't gave us much detail.  I would be very
interested in a more detailed exposition of his intuitive findings.
Otherwise, I would like none to bother me if I write that Liszt's "Requiem"
is inspired in Palestrina's "Missa Papae Marcelli".

>Now a question which would intrigue me to hear your suggestions to:
>Beethovens Eroica 4TH movement: Where does the theme actually start?

Interesting question.  The theme start at bar 12 (string pizzicato in
octaves).  There's a first variation starting at bar 44 (strings only),
and a second variation starting at bar 60 (strings only also).  At the
third variation (bar 76) there's a melody (Eb-G-Eb-D, F-Ab-F-Eb) given
by the oboe.  The original theme becomes a background of this melody (you
can see that the theme is given here almost without change in contrabass
pizzicato).  That's a normal variation procedure, but Beethoven will use
later this "derived" melody as a sort of alias of the original theme, i.e.
he will take a variation as a subject of other variations.  That brings a
little confusion (and a lot of spice), because one may wonder where does
the original theme properly start.

Pablo Massa
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