Stirling Newberry [[log in to unmask]] wrote:

>>On can critique the late 19th century through critiquing Wagner's opera
>>dramas - its petty racisms, its nihilistic fear of its rag to riches
>>rise, its lies to shroud deep insecurities, its bombast and stullifying
>>weight - as much as one can hail the age's technological advancements,
>>organisational acheivements and search for sublime beauty in unified
>>action.

Yes, this is what one could say, and what many people say about the poor
man and his music, but it is not what one may say.  I doubt this intolerant
wiew is Mr.  Newberrys own, but that he meant it as I wrote; this is what
people could say...

Sathoshi Akima [[log in to unmask]] replies to Stirling Newberry:

>I have recently written extensively on the Ring and I must insist that
>unlike, Shakespeare, I see nothing racist in Wagner's music dramas.  The
>Nibelungs are dwarves, not Jews, not homosexuals, not gipsies etc.  The
>Gods are Gods, not superior Aryan etc.  To see 'race' theory in Wagner one
>has to adopt as perverse an interpretation of him as Hitler imposed upon
>Wagner, and thus ends up conceding to Hitler that he was right in
>interpreting Wagner in such a way.

There is little or no racism in Wagners works.  There used to be a
warpo named Marc Weiner who in his great opus "Rickard Wagner and the
Antisemitic Imagination" had the divine gift to see much rasicm in Wagners
music.  He offers the most ridiculous examples, everything overinterpreted.
For example he argues that there was a saying in the 19th century that
Jews had bad hearing, and therefore, when Loke insults Alberich in "Das
Rheingold", he don't hear it and says; "Was sagt er?" ("What is he
saying?"), and therefore Weiner draws the conclusion that he is a Jew.
However this example bear in itself its own weakness; Weiner has obviously
not rememberd, or taken notice to, that in "Die Meistersinger von
Nuernberg" Hans Sachs also at one occassion don't hear, and says "What?".
Strange nobody has claimed he is a jew too...

Weiner and his kind bears much of the responsibility for the
protonazirickard-babbling that occured in the wake of WWII.

In Wagners works hardly racism, but in Wagner himself no racism let itself
not so easy be said.  Wagner is with his suggested antisemitism a parallell
to Hitler, as both of them suspected themselves to be of jewish heritage,
they were sensitive to the antisemitic atmosphere of their society, and
were afraid of being a target for the innuendo that circulated.  When
Hitler killed off 6 million jews, homosexuals, etc, he was maybe fighting
against forces in his own mind.  Also in Wagner the antisemitism stemed
from selfhatred.

Rickard didn't know whom his real father was; he was born around the
time for his "father" (wagner)'s death, and soon thereafter Johanna Paetz
married Geyer, who was a jew.  He could have been the son of any of them,
though Johanna claimed Wagner was the father.  Rickard bore Geyers name
until his 16th year, when he changed his name to Wagner.

Who was the biological father of Rickie Wagner then? The question doesn't
let be answered to so easy.

In our time we can easy find it out with C14 method - no just joking -
genetic analysis of couse, but as far as I know no such has been made so
far.

There are photos of the members of the Wagner-Geyer clane, but if you
compare Rickards face with those of brother Albert (Wagner) or sister
Caecile (Geyer), you will find that they are all looking like the mother.
I will put up photos of the familymembers on my homepage later, so you can
see.

For personalia and talents, it goes the same way; most of the childern had
musical talents, these they had inherited from the mother too.  In addition
Rickard had the talent of juggling with the language, he was a good writer
- like...Ludwig Geyer.  But this is hardly a proof.

So what we know is:  1) Carl Friederich was Aryan.  2) Ludwig was of
Semitic heritage.  3) Rickard didn't know who were the father.  4) Young
Rickard was obssessed with the antisemitism in his environment, and got
a phobia for not belonging to the "lower race" (not my own words).

Rickard Wagner made antisemitic speeches in his life - it is difficult to
ignore that - BUT!  What is insane in the whole Wagnerantisemite debate
is the belief that this was the same sort of antisemitism that was in the
nazis of 20th century, and for two reasons:  the antisemitism of 19th
century was different from that of the 1930ies, as the former was a weak
form of culturetradition, a sort of socializing, with colours of fear
for strangers within, and the latter was a child of the steered
propagandaapparatus of a sick mind (I usually don't judge Hitler so easy
as this time, but to create a relief) in a society that was receptive for
exactly this kind of hatred.  I am sure that many of those who in 1870
barked on jews would have been frigthened up if they had seen the nazis
of the 1930ies methods, and found them repellent.

A fenome of the insane raging against "naziwagner" is the phenomenon
of only sheding light on the mans antisemitic speeches and acting, and
ignoring everything that was the opposite, because this is what has been
done.  To find out if I am lying or not I refer to Wagners own letters, and
people wtriting about him.  I have given examples on Wagenrs prosemitic
feelings before, and I will do it again (with providing some new examples
meanwhile):

Ex1) Wagner said at several times:  "I will have nothing against the Jews
if they just gave up their religion".

Ex2) A letter from 1874 to his friend Ludwig II of Bayern is another
example; there he complains on the antisemitis who are writing him letters
beliving they can count with him (and why did they believe that? There is
a good reason, see downunder!).

Ex3) From the famous pamphlett "The finale fall of the "Weltanscahuung"
of the aristocracy" which was published in Dresdener Anzeiger 14.06.1848:
"The greatest grade of happines and prosperity for all, is achieved when
all people of the world work together with their different characters for
the common best" (excuse my bad translation from Swedish please!).

Ex4) Rickard had mixed feelings for the man who maybe was his father,
Ludwig Geyer.  The fear for belonging to a lower race in being his child,
caused a collision in Wagners mind, and his antisemitic speeches - I could
guess this - stems from here (Notice:  Wagner is his own source here).
However Rickard loved his father Geyer,a nd was thankful to him, and the
ways Wagner showed this are some of the finest examples on what a fine
and kind man - exactly as Hermann Levi (a jew), describes him - However
it seems that first later in life, Wagner could find peace with his
contradicting feelings, and remember the man, who probably was, and
Wagner probably believed was his real father.  A fine example is when the
repetitions for the first Ring performance 1876 took place, and between
"Das Rhiengold" and "Die Walkuere", Wagner let the actors and musicians
perform a little miniature play that his father Geyer had written, and he
had arranged himself.  This is also why I wrote that Geyer probably was his
biological father, and he thought so himself.  I don't know of any similar
manifestations in regard to Carl Friederich...

And for Gods sake (If I now allow myself to use such a pervers phrase),
stop the babbling about how rude and unpleasant Wagner was as person!!
Read what people has to say about Brahms instead; compared with him it can
be said that Wagner at least had many friends, what had been unlikely if
he was that sh*t he is described to have been.

But something still needs an explanation; why people as described
above (with Wagners own words), wrote letters to him beliveing he was an
antisemite.  There is a good answer to this.  Wagner was very concerned
himself with his own origin, what his real origin was, and he revealed his
thoughts for some friedns, the whole story.  But somebody didn't live up to
Wagners trust, and Wagenrs private problem didn't stay confidential.  The
press snapped up the story at an early stadium, and made a duck of it.  In
fact, I belive that the whole saying with Wagners antisemitism - that is
stood out from others - was that the papers wrote so much about it.  In
papers Wagner became known as "The antisemitic Jew".  They obviously
thought it very funny that Wagner thought himself to be of jewish origin,
and tried to "cure" himself with antisemitic speeches.  (Wagners
personality was split in many issues, this is only on example of that).
You don't buy this? Then take a look on Wagnerphotos.  What does he look
like? With his large chin and big curved nose.  Doesn't he look a little
like the schabloneimage of a Jew? At least that was what his time though,
that is why these characteristicas in his looking are exaggerated in
contemporary charicatures...

>None of these things have anything to do with the Ring or any other work
>by Wagner at all.  Sorry I don't understand what you are talking about at
>all!

There might be very little of antisemitism in Wagenrs works, but there
could be something that traces it, as most of Wagners works is about
himself, and "antisemitism" (please note my quotation marks) was a part
of himself - at least to times.

>Further I see no nihilistic fear of any rags to riches rise.

The accusion is interesting as he was a compulsatory buyer himself.  But
he had Communist ideas at least aroundd 1848 which seem very honest.

>I see no bombast. I see no stultifying weight.

"Bombast" and "Stultifying" I don't like.  But certainly I feel weight, but
that just fits me.

>Clearly Stirling Newberry is no Wagnerian.  But perhaps Wagner is not
>meant for everyone...

Just to end this "bombast" Wagnerian post of "Stultifying weight" (I
hope the sarcasm is noticed) I will throw some wise words after you:  No
composer is meant for everybody!  When it comes to myself, I am glad I am
not:-)

Mats Norrman
[log in to unmask]