I, too, am fascinated by this discussion of approaches to the care of women and babies. I speak as a rhetorician when I second Jennifer Tow's observation that *no one* disagrees with Betsy's assertion that women should not be harangued about a bell that cannot be unrung. No one on this list would advocate going to a new mother's bed and saying, "Wow, now that you've had a highly intervened-upon birth, and given your baby some formula, all is lost and little can be salvaged." When one makes an argument in which she attributes all sorts of nasty behavior and ideas to her perceived opponent (all of which almost anyone would unequivocally reject), she has created what we rhetoricians call a "strawman" (or in this case, a strawwoman...). This is not a legitimate way to argue, but many do it, because it is easier to tear down a monster of ones own creation than to engage a real, live, intelligent person who is challenging ones worldview. One reason I love lactnet is that its contributors rarely sink to this level. And two observation as a mother. My first child was born in a US teaching hospital. No one on the staff supported unmedicated childbirth (my HMO dictated that I give birth at this hospital. Engaging a midwife to attend a homebirth cost more money than we had). The nurse who attended me at the hospital called unmedicated childbirth "medieval." I gave in. Yes, I take responsibility for giving in, but having every single person at that hospital scoff at the notion of not getting an epidural didn't help. I know that the subsequent challenges my son and I faced postpartum in all likelihood had a great deal to do with the interventions we received. Am I mad at the people who helped me see that connection? Goodness no. They are the same people who supported me through 10 months of exclusive BF and nursing him until his fourth birthday. My second child was born in a BFHI hospital in the UK, but I was lucky enough to labor at home and come to the hospital only a short time before delivery. You know why? Because a midwife with HORRIBLE social skills told me the truth in a militant, patronizing, upsetting way. When I called the hospital at 11:30 PM to tell her I wanted to come in, she said, "I don't here in your voice that you are ready. I see that you came in this morning and weren't really in labor. You can't just come and go. If you come now, you have to stay. And if you come in now, the doctors will probably have to get involved and you'll be hooked up to an IV." She upset me. My labor slowed a bit. I cried at how she had spoken to me. BUT, I heeded her advice and had six more lovely hours at home with my husband (my parents and son slept through all of it!), and was almost ready to deliver when I got to the hospital at 6:00 AM. The truth is a good thing. It is much better if we here it in a loving way at the right time. And I wish that midwife had been nicer. Her tone and attitude are not models to be imitated. But boy am I glad she was candid with me. Betsy describes women who hear the truth and still choose medicalized births and formula use. She suggests that her colleagues should not behave judgmentally toward these people. No one on this list is suggesting that anybody behave judgmentally toward these women. I know that Diane Weissinger wrote recently that when a woman has all the information and support she needs and chooses not to breastfeed, that is not a bad thing. Right now most US women do not, however, get anything remotely close to adequate information and support for optimal breastfeeding. Arguments that we should censor ourselves as we endeavor to right this wrong are troubling, to say the least. Kerry Ose, PHD *********************************************** To temporarily stop your subscription: set lactnet nomail To start it again: set lactnet mail (or digest) To unsubscribe: unsubscribe lactnet All commands go to [log in to unmask] The LACTNET mailing list is powered by L-Soft's renowned LISTSERV(R) list management software together with L-Soft's LSMTP(R) mailer for lightning fast mail delivery. For more information, go to: http://www.lsoft.com/LISTSERV-powered.html